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Medal of Honor citation wrote:Determined to force a breakthrough when Japanese troops occupying trenches and fortified positions on the left front laid down a terrific machinegun and mortar barrage in a desperate effort to halt his company's advance, P/Sgt. Julian quickly established his platoon's guns in strategic supporting positions, and then, acting on his own initiative, fearlessly moved forward to execute a 1-man assault on the nearest pillbox. Advancing alone, he hurled deadly demolition and white phosphorus grenades into the emplacement, killing 2 of the enemy and driving the remaining 5 out into the adjoining trench system. Seizing a discarded rifle, he jumped into the trench and dispatched the 5 before they could make an escape. Intent on wiping out all resistance, he obtained more explosives and, accompanied by another Marine, again charged the hostile fortifications and knocked out 2 more cave positions. Immediately thereafter, he launched a bazooka attack unassisted, firing 4 rounds into the 1 remaining pillbox and completely destroying it before he fell, mortally wounded by a vicious burst of enemy fire. Stouthearted and indomitable, P/Sgt. Julian consistently disregarded all personal danger and, by his bold decision, daring tactics, and relentless fighting spirit during a critical phase of the battle, contributed materially to the continued advance of his company and to the success of his division's operations in the sustained drive toward the conquest of this fiercely defended outpost of the Japanese Empire. His outstanding valor and unfaltering spirit of self-sacrifice throughout the bitter conflict sustained and enhanced the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.
I fail to see how a Japanese Kamikaze pilot diving on a carrier with the intent of sacrifice himself denying the enemy vital assets is inmoral while Sgt Julian´s action is praise worthy. In both cases we are talking about a soldier loosing his life for his country.
M.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw I forgot to add that the first "Kamikaze" was a British pilot diving his crippled plane on top of a Regia Marina ship instead of bailing out. Was he too being immoral Kanluwen?
M.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/03 05:33:27
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
sebster wrote:What about the 300 at Thermopylae, fighting to the last as a rear guard action to give the Greeks time to gather their army?
Are you saying that every single instance of someone going to fight, knowing they will die, is immoral?
No, what I'm saying is that it's my OPINION.
I could give less of a crap about how the Japanese felt when they did it. To me, it's wrong. To US soldiers then, it was wrong. In this day and age, it would be highly frowned upon to pull any crap like the kamikazes did without a VERY good reason.
Kanluwen wrote:No, what I'm saying is that it's my OPINION.
I could give less of a crap about how the Japanese felt when they did it. To me, it's wrong. To US soldiers then, it was wrong. In this day and age, it would be highly frowned upon to pull any crap like the kamikazes did without a VERY good reason.
"Without a very good reason..."
Which is what everyone's been saying - what matters is why someone commits a suicide attack, not the fact they die in the attack as well. Flying a torpedo strike is exactly as moral as flying a kamikaze raid - what matters is why you're doing it.
And incidentally, what's with pointing out that it's your opinion? We know it's your opinion, we're just pointing out that it's our opinion that you're wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/03 05:44:29
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Flying a torpedo strike, to me, is a completely different thing than turning YOURSELF into a guided torpedo. It's really just that simple. It's the same difference between a soldier charging a bunker and putting himself willingly in a situation he might not come back from--and strapping a bomb vest on and running into a crowded shopping district.
I also find it amusing that this whole argument is coming about because Miguelsan can't tell the difference between opinions and fact.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I was pointing out the opinion bit because it seemed to me with the constant pointing out of US Medal of Honor recipients, etc that he somehow believed I was stating a fact.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/03 05:48:38
I understand the difference pretty well, thank you. I made the MoH reference to say that if you want to have a especial hell for Kamikaze pilots I want to say that the MoH recipients were a bunch of adrenaline junkies and when you take offense point out your inconsistencies about people that sacrifice their lives for their countries.
M.
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
Flying a torpedo strike, to me, is a completely different thing than turning YOURSELF into a guided torpedo. It's really just that simple. It's the same difference between a soldier charging a bunker and putting himself willingly in a situation he might not come back from--and strapping a bomb vest on and running into a crowded shopping district.
No, the difference there is one is charging a bunker and the other is charging a market. If you're going to try and debate this kind of thing, especially with members of foreign nationalities, at least try to be somewhat civil about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/03 06:06:36
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
sebster wrote:What about the 300 at Thermopylae, fighting to the last as a rear guard action to give the Greeks time to gather their army?
Are you saying that every single instance of someone going to fight, knowing they will die, is immoral?
No, what I'm saying is that it's my OPINION.
I could give less of a crap about how the Japanese felt when they did it. To me, it's wrong. To US soldiers then, it was wrong. In this day and age, it would be highly frowned upon to pull any crap like the kamikazes did without a VERY good reason.
You say it is nothing more than your personal opinion, then you claim the US forces of the time all had the same opinion as you, then you declare that it is a moral law which applies throughout the world, but you don't give any of the reasons why it would be all right.
Flying a torpedo strike, to me, is a completely different thing than turning YOURSELF into a guided torpedo. It's really just that simple. It's the same difference between a soldier charging a bunker and putting himself willingly in a situation he might not come back from--and strapping a bomb vest on and running into a crowded shopping district.
No, the difference there is one is charging a bunker and the other is charging a market. If you're going to try and debate this kind of thing, especially with members of foreign nationalities, at least try to be somewhat civil about it.
There's no difference whatsoever in that case.
One is wrong in so many fething ways it's not even comprehensibly right...
The other is an acceptable action done under combat situations.
You have to take into accounting the circumstances of most kamikaze strikes, and the tactics that Japan used when employing kamikazes. Look at the hidden kamikaze boats and planes that were captured on Okinawa. They were stashed away near areas that the Japanese were planning on using as redoubts, and packed to the brim with explosives.
And I fail to see how a poor analogy is being uncivil.
Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, but do you expect to change my opinion?
I expect everyone to participate in an informed discussion on the morality or immorality of suicide attacks, and leave the conversation with more considered opinions.
I expect everyone to attempt to defend their position in good faith, and if their position proves unsupportable they should be intellectually honest enough to change their mind.
Flying a torpedo strike, to me, is a completely different thing than turning YOURSELF into a guided torpedo. It's really just that simple. It's the same difference between a soldier charging a bunker and putting himself willingly in a situation he might not come back from--and strapping a bomb vest on and running into a crowded shopping district.
By your standard, the primary point of difference is if the attacker kills himself in the attack. This leads you to putting a guy flying a kamikaze attack on a military vessel and a suicider bomber blowing up a market place on the same level. But what about a remote detonated bomb used against the market place - in that instance the attacker survives but he still kills loads of civilians?
Most of us would think the more important consideration would be targetting civilians, so the remote detonation of a bomb in a market place and a suicide bombing that market place would be morally equivalent. While targetting a military vessel in war time would be very different, placing the torpedo attack on the boat and the kamikaze raid as morally equivalent. What happens to the attackers seems quite irrelevant.
Oh, I was pointing out the opinion bit because it seemed to me with the constant pointing out of US Medal of Honor recipients, etc that he somehow believed I was stating a fact.
What? Responding with substantive argument means the other person must be attempting to claim a fact. How are you using 'fact'?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:You have to take into accounting the circumstances of most kamikaze strikes...
And when it was pointed out what really mattered was the circumstances leading the kamikaze to make his attack, you said you didn't care what his reasons were.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/03 06:24:34
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
It's not so much if the attacker kills himself in the attack that affects my opinion on the subject.
It's the tactics BEHIND the attack.
A kamikaze strike was designed as a tool to strike troops and damage morale at the same time. Look at the treatment of snipers captured during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and even today. It's the idea that it's a sneaky, underhanded tactic that wastes your soldiers' lives that exists for no other purpose than to unnerve and destroy the enemy soldiers' morale.
Kanluwen wrote:
There's no difference whatsoever in that case.
Good, I'll just note somewhere in the back of my mind that you don't see civilians as being distinct from members of the military.
Kanluwen wrote:
You have to take into accounting the circumstances of most kamikaze strikes, and the tactics that Japan used when employing kamikazes.
No you don't. Can I say that all the American soldiers in WWII were horribly immoral because we rounded up the Japanese into internment camps, and firebombed Dresden?
Kanluwen wrote:
Look at the hidden kamikaze boats and planes that were captured on Okinawa. They were stashed away near areas that the Japanese were planning on using as redoubts, and packed to the brim with explosives.
Yes, because they wanted to stall the American advance for as long as possible. There's nothing immoral about that.
Kanluwen wrote:
A kamikaze strike was designed as a tool to strike troops and damage morale at the same time. Look at the treatment of snipers captured during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and even today. It's the idea that it's a sneaky, underhanded tactic that wastes your soldiers' lives that exists for no other purpose than to unnerve and destroy the enemy soldiers' morale.
That's not sneaky, its intelligent. Morale is a critical element of of any war effort. Many, many tactics are employed specifically for their affect on enemy morale. Things like sabotage, strategic bombing of civilian targets, etc. Really even something as simple as bombardment is calculated to affect the morale of the target.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/12/03 06:32:26
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Kanluwen wrote:It's not so much if the attacker kills himself in the attack that affects my opinion on the subject.
It's the tactics BEHIND the attack.
So it is about why the attacker launched the attack, and so it does matter if it was done in the belief that US could be defeated, or just out of spite to kill as many as possible?
A kamikaze strike was designed as a tool to strike troops and damage morale at the same time. Look at the treatment of snipers captured during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and even today. It's the idea that it's a sneaky, underhanded tactic that wastes your soldiers' lives that exists for no other purpose than to unnerve and destroy the enemy soldiers' morale.
Kamikaze strikes came into use when US naval superiority meant the Japanese air force were outranged, and couldn't strike US ships and still have enough fuel to return to base. So they doubled their range by making them one way trips. It was a last, desperate measure to find some way of striking back at the US fleet.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
If I may defend kanluwen here a little, (because really, do five of you have to jump all over him?) I believe what he is trying to say is that he sees the MoH actions as the actions of men doing what they could to save their buddies and just trying to survive the fight. Kamikazes were volunteers who took drugs and slammed themselves into ships for their country, their emperor, and what they considered an honorable death.
I don't particularly hold the kamikazes in any contempt - instead I pity a country that was so blinded by its militarism that it took the death of hundreds of thousands of troops and hundred of thousands of civilians (I may be low-balling those figures) for it to accept surrender.
However, I do find it reprehensible that these soldiers were actively supporting an army and government that committed the rape of Nanking, the killing of 100,000 people in forced labor camps in Burma (bridge on the river kwai) and countless other atrocities. While the kamikazes in and of themselves seem like the victims of a callous government desparately trying to retain power, a great many japanese soldiers and sailors do indeed deserve a special place in hell.
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:If I may defend kanluwen here a little, (because really, do five of you have to jump all over him?) I believe what he is trying to say is that he sees the MoH actions as the actions of men doing what they could to save their buddies and just trying to survive the fight. Kamikazes were volunteers who took drugs and slammed themselves into ships for their country, their emperor, and what they considered an honorable death.
I don't particularly hold the kamikazes in any contempt - instead I pity a country that was so blinded by its militarism that it took the death of hundreds of thousands of troops and hundred of thousands of civilians (I may be low-balling those figures) for it to accept surrender.
However, I do find it reprehensible that these soldiers were actively supporting an army and government that committed the rape of Nanking, the killing of 100,000 people in forced labor camps in Burma (bridge on the river kwai) and countless other atrocities. While the kamikazes in and of themselves seem like the victims of a callous government desparately trying to retain power, a great many japanese soldiers and sailors do indeed deserve a special place in hell.
Yes, the conduct of the Japanese throughout much of the war was appalling, and many soldiers deserve condemnation (I've been to the memorial in Nanking - its a powerful place). But it's a different thing to extend that immorality to every soldier who fought for the Japanese. If a US soldier and a Japanese soldier are each drafted, and each fight honourable, brave fights, is the US soldier more more moral because he was drafted into a better cause?
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
It is also worth remembering that morality and good and evil are all subjct to the individuals point of veiw. History is written by the victors. In almost all wars the side which ultimately won is considered to be the good guys.
@Squilverine - True, but I don't think anyone who viewed the facts objectively and dispassionately, could conclude anything other than the fact that The Japanese and The Nazis were the 'bad guys'.
Also I think the main problem with the the Kamikaze thing is that it was a matter of policy to employ suicide attacks - VCs and MoHs were awarded for individual acts of bravery that went above and beyond the call of duty. IMO a Kamikaze attack (or rather, the people who decided to employ this tactic) were just as cowardly and cynical as modern-day suicide bombing. I feel sorry for the people who perpetrate such acts - they are obviously brainwashed, and drugged to the eyeballs in many cases - a fact which kind of negates bravery as a factor in this particular scenario.
Kanluwen wrote:Well, to be fair: The United States wasn't officially at war with Japan or Germany, as far as I recall.
But they were providing materiale to Britain and Russia under the lend-lease act, if I remember it right.
Either way, kamikaze pilots would be put into a special category of hell now for their actions.
I find the hell comment kind of offensive. The US has the MoH for actions very similar to the Kamikaze attacks with the only difference is that US soldiers face death in the hope that perhaps they will not die while Kamikazes were sure that they were going to die.
Code of Federal Regulations wrote:"conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
So if you want to disrespect members of the armed forces of Japan that chose (no matter how mistaken they were) the ultimate sacrifice for their country I want an open day on the 3467 recipients of the MoH or the 1356 VC.
M.
I'll be clear so a not to be misinterpreted.
Feth them
Feth their ancestors for 10 generations
Feth their descendants for 10 generations
May they rot in a hell of worms and biting ants.
My grandfather was one of the guys that helped smuggle pics of what the "armed force of Japan" did in Nanking, to men, women, and children. That was Japan unchecked.
Feth them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:the Fort Hood terrorist was a psychiatrist as well.
And the entirety of the Cavalier King Charles breed comes from just six dogs remaining after the Second World War.
This is a fun game, but why are we spouting random statements?
Thats not a radnom statement. This is a random statement.
Chicken McGinty flavored Space Monkey Rocket Juice!
You're gonna have to raise your game to play random statements with a Professional Nutcase!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/03 11:54:29
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Supplicating in front of the SPAM god. (sound dirty doesn't it?)
Really? You sure you want to say that Frazzled? I believe you just made yourself the least objective person in this thread. I may not agree with Kanluwen, but at least he has not insinuated that ALL Japanese past and present are horrible people.
By your reasoning, I could say that the Allies and their ancestors and descendents were horrible people for killing millions of civilians via firebombings and bombing raids.
It only takes a few to create an atrocity. The Nazi's numbered only 100,000 people, but managed to kill 6 million jews. The choices of a few on Allied command who thought they could break the German morale by bombing civilian cities (which actually caused the opposite to happen) caused the deaths of millions of Germans who had nothing to do with the Nazi Party.
I just know I'm gonna enjoy devil's advocate in this thread.
highbattalion.com/commandments.htm
check it out
"At least when you are up against the servants of Khorne you can always count on them to run straight at you." - Commissar Caiphas Cain
Glorius is the mighty SPAM god and the lesser god Pork. May they forever shine bacon and BBQ down upon us! -Emperors Faithful
SPAM FOR THE SPAM GOD!!!!! JAM FOR THE JAM THRONE!!!!!!! -codemonkey
GundamMerc wrote:Really? You sure you want to say that Frazzled? I believe you just made yourself the least objective person in this thread. I may not agree with Kanluwen, but at least he has not insinuated that ALL Japanese past and present are horrible people.
By your reasoning, I could say that the Allies and their ancestors and descendents were horrible people for killing millions of civilians via firebombings and bombing raids.
It only takes a few to create an atrocity. The Nazi's numbered only 100,000 people, but managed to kill 6 million jews. The choices of a few on Allied command who thought they could break the German morale by bombing civilian cities (which actually caused the opposite to happen) caused the deaths of millions of Germans who had nothing to do with the Nazi Party.
I just know I'm gonna enjoy devil's advocate in this thread.
Not all Japanese. Anyone who was in the Japanese military pre and at WWII that supported that brutal killer regime.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Albatross wrote:@Squilverine - True, but I don't think anyone who viewed the facts objectively and dispassionately, could conclude anything other than the fact that The Japanese and The Nazis were the 'bad guys'.
Not if the Nazi's and the Imperial Japanese has won. They would have made sure that the British and the Americans were seen as the baby eating monsters of the whole piece. The majority would have been kept ignorant of their countries attrocities via clever censorship and propaganda, whilst anyone brave/stupid enough to speak out against the ruling regimes would be....... silenced.
Albatross wrote:@Squilverine - True, but I don't think anyone who viewed the facts objectively and dispassionately, could conclude anything other than the fact that The Japanese and The Nazis were the 'bad guys'.
Not if the Nazi's and the Imperial Japanese has won. They would have made sure that the British and the Americans were seen as the baby eating monsters of the whole piece. The majority would have been kept ignorant of their countries attrocities via clever censorship and propaganda, whilst anyone brave/stupid enough to speak out against the ruling regimes would be....... silenced.
I think China, Vietnam, Korea, Myanmar, and the Phillipines would disagree with you on that.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Wiki wrote: The two major religious confessions are the Roman Catholic Church (42% of the population) and the Swiss Reformed Church (35%). The country is historically about evenly balanced between Catholic and Protestant regions. The larger cities (Bern, Zürich, Basel, Geneva) are traditionally Protestant, while Central Switzerland and the Ticino are traditionally Catholic.
Immigration has brought Islam (4.26% as of 2000, compared to 0.26% in 1970) and Eastern Orthodoxy (1.8%) as sizeable minority religions.[2]. Other minority communities include various Protestant denominations (totalling 1.9%), the New Apostolic Church (0.45%), Hinduism (0.38%), Buddhism (0.29%), Judaism (0.25%), Jehovah's Witnesses (0.23%) and the Old Catholic Church (0.18%). Various other communities account for 0.31%. 11.1% of the Swiss were irreligious as of 2000, another 4.3% refused to make a statement.[3]
Regarding personal belief, the 2005 Eurobarometer Poll found that 48% of Swiss citizens expressed belief "that there is a God", 39% expressed belief in "some sort of spirit or life force" while 9% answered that that they did not believe that "there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"[4]
Conclusion:
I know we are kinda moving on... But I am just going to leave this right here...
\sarcasm = true
Damn immoral bastard... He knew he had no chance of survival... NO CHANCE!!! But he flew his plane into that ship anyway... Stupid fether... BURN IN HELL YOU IMMORAL FETHTARD!!!
I am a damaged individual screaming random obscenities into the internet, sorry if I upset you.
"Dig what you dig. Don't take any fool's madness, just dig what you dig."
-Corey Taylor (Not Saying you're a fool )
"You guys are nuttier n fruitbats who just sucked a three week old pineapple." -Frazzled
Way to make the point using Independence Day. Well done, sir.
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I'll be clear so a not to be misinterpreted.
Feth them
Feth their ancestors for 10 generations
Feth their descendants for 10 generations
May they rot in a hell of worms and biting ants.
My grandfather was one of the guys that helped smuggle pics of what the "armed force of Japan" did in Nanking, to men, women, and children. That was Japan unchecked.
Feth them.
I work at a museum that specializes in artifacts of native peoples (yay graphic design jobs!). Most surviving indigenous tribesman in america would tell you you're being a giant tool for saying that. But hey, it's only awful when you're not directly benefitting when it's done.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
I'll be clear so a not to be misinterpreted.
Feth them
Feth their ancestors for 10 generations
Feth their descendants for 10 generations
May they rot in a hell of worms and biting ants.
My grandfather was one of the guys that helped smuggle pics of what the "armed force of Japan" did in Nanking, to men, women, and children. That was Japan unchecked.
Feth them.
I work at a museum that specializes in artifacts of native peoples (yay graphic design jobs!). Most surviving indigenous tribesman in america would tell you you're being a giant tool for saying that. But hey, it's only awful when you're not directly benefitting when it's done.
I'm indigeneous. I was born here, don't know about you.
But I get what you're flailingly trying to get at, that "native Americans" can make the same claims. Yep.
Of course its utterly irrelevant to the topic of terrorists and suicide bombers, which itself is utterly irrelevant to the topic of the Swiss and their apparent love of zoning.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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5000pts
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