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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not really.

The fact that there are so few Ork-centric pieces of lore is, in fact, due to this

I dunno why people say loyalist marines are bland and one dimensional. Perhaps many of the books on them are, and certainly they have a rather simple base concept, but once you branch out from there you get like, a ridiculously HUGE variety of personalities.

Really, you have the Salamanders who love forging stuff and actually care about people. Within this chapter you have some who are ambitious and want to lead their company and others who are just trying to do their job (from the novels)

You have the Blood Angels who are cursed to go beserk into death throes sometimes, yet try their hardest and are generally optimistic. Within this chapter you have a chapter master who's so OLD that he kinda wishes he could just die but hangs on because he believes he'll be needed to save the emperor some day, a stern stoic executioner who has to bear the burden of executing said marines who went beserk, and many other characters each with their own individual personalities. Then you branch off into their successors and you get chapters like the Lamenters who managed to stave off the worse effects of the Black Rage but are hated by everyone due to their bad luck despite how they're just trying to do their best to help humanity, or the Flesh Tearers who are completely in the other direction and hated by everyone for it yet are STILL trying to do their best to help humanity (or at least, their chapter master is) despite it all.

Then you have the Iron Hands, who are grumpy old guys who hate everything but machines. You have the Space Wolves, who are rebellious and rambunctious but have some guys who are a bit wisened by the years and others like Lukas who are just nuts. Then you have the Dark Angels, who are insanely loyal yet insanely paranoid, and you can dip into their successor chapters like the Angels of Absolution who believe they're forgiven for that sin by their actions.

Then you go into all of the more out-there chapters and you get the Black Dragons who are shunned for their mutations but don't care, the Silver Skulls who are crazy hooked on prognostications, the Carcharodons who are professional off battle but crazy beserk on it, the minotaurs who are just crazy in general, and the Marines Malevelent who are just jack asses (not even "ZOMG EVIL EVIL EVIL!!! jack asses like Chaos is, but relatively more of that "man, that internet poster is such a jerk" jack ass you see in every day life")

You have space marines who might have been made from traitor gene seed and are trying to cover it up, space marines that were illegally founded by the Adeptus Mechanicus, space marines that want to use Chaos' weapons against them, space marines that work closely with the inquisition and that don't and that hate everyone or love everyone or just don't care about anything anymore and there are even some space marine chapters that do worship the emperor as a god...

Seriously, how the feth can that be bland and one-dimensional? The amount of personalities for Space Marines that exist in the fluff and the potential for you yourself to create your own personality for them is nearly endless. If anything, of all the factions, they offer the 2nd most in-canon and potential-fanon personality customization there is in terms of personality! (the first would be the Imperial Guard. You can have a cowardly or greedy guardsman but you won't find a cowardly marine, etc. Space Marine indoctrination makes it hard to have certain personality aspects in them)

Compare this to say, the Adeptus Sororitas, where if they aren't crazy zealous religious fanatics, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to say, the Tau where if you make your Tau overly emotional when they're supposed to not have a big warp signature, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to the Tyranids where ALL the bugs are controlled by the same hive mind and if they have separate personalities from each other besides the Swarm Lord, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to the necrons, where the only personality customization you can have at all is with the top brass (old crons had it even worse. There's a reason why some people say they were basically a 2nd tyranid faction). Compare it to the Dark Eldar, where if you aren't a psychotic selfish evil ass, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to the Orks where if you have an Ork that actually cares about the little guy, you're prooooobably doing it wrong but maybe not.

...as an aside, orks aren't one-dimensional, either. They have access to almost all the emotions humans have access to that has turned up in the fluff on multiple occasions, with the exception of sexual lust and possibly sadness . While it's true they ALL love fighting, from there orks do have various idiosynacrasis like how some like bling more than others, some like speed more than others, some actually care about "little guys" (runt-herders and orks that keep squigs for pets), etc etc. Sure, they aren't capable of sexual feelings like the Guard and (far as I know) don't experience sadness like the Guard and some Space Marines, but they can have all the other emotions as well as free will and you can branch off of that to end up with speed freaks, mercenary orks who will work with humies, orks who hate other alien races and see those who work with them as un-orky, free booter orks that have an adventurous spirit or were just rejected from ork society for a wide variety of non-one-dimensional reasons, orks that sincerely hate their foe, orks that sincerely see their foe as the ork-ish equivalent of best friend (best enemy), etc etc.

I think people who call certain factions "one-dimensional" don't know what the term means.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That is less the fault of the faction and more the fault of GW's intense focus on the Imperium.

Orks are necks to be stepped on in most novels because they're a goofy race of cockney accented fodder and they have the numbers to not go extinct because of it.

Have an exalt.

XXXX

It's not that orks are never the main villain. Sometimes they are, such as Armegeddon and the Raid for Kastorum Novum (I know the spelling is wrong)

It's that there's usually no other race available to really be stepped on if you're trying to write a novel that has two villain factions within it. Well, in terms of whether the authors can be bothered to expend the energy fleshing out TWO villain factions. It's much easier to flesh out one villain faction and then just toss orks in as the other one because they're orks.

I guess asking them to flesh out a Dark Eldar Cabal and a Chaos Marine legion within the same book would be too much or something?

....although it'd be funny if there were a book where the orks ended up being the main villains and the other villain faction got stepped on in the process.

That said, the final boss of one of the videogames (the Kill Team one, I think? it was the Death Watch one) had the orks as the initial faction to be stepped on with the Tyranids as the main villain, but the final boss was the Ork leader in the end (in a stompa!) so they did get to be the "final villain" at least once in a multi-villain set up, even if that game followed the typical "orks first, other villain later" formula until the end.

I am pretty sure that the only correct answer is that you all are wrong and I am right.

Orks, were I to write them, would not be the fodder they are in almost all other pieces of 40k fluff, but they are. There is some depth to their fluff, but it is often quietly brushed aside either for the sake of comedy or for the sake of needing something to die in droves to the protagonists.

Angron was not whining when he railed against the Emperor for forcing him to watch his family die, that's idiotic.

For me, recently, it's been SoB. They've started to feel boring and gimmicky, which is a shame 'cause I used to think they were pretty cool.

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's much easier to flesh out one villain faction and then just toss orks in as the other one because they're orks.

And because in 40k, it actually makes logical sense for any faction to encounter at least a smattering of Orks at every step.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:
I am pretty sure that the only correct answer is that you all are wrong and I am right.

Orks, were I to write them, would not be the fodder they are in almost all other pieces of 40k fluff, but they are. There is some depth to their fluff, but it is often quietly brushed aside either for the sake of comedy or for the sake of needing something to die in droves to the protagonists.

Angron was not whining when he railed against the Emperor for forcing him to watch his family die, that's idiotic.

I agree on the second and third points, but not the first, because I shall not accept failure so easily

I echo Selym's post.

Just because the BL writers are incompetent doesn't mean the lore that exists is bad

At least that's what CSM players keep telling me.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That is less the fault of the faction and more the fault of GW's intense focus on the Imperium.

Not really. Orks get dragged through the mud in the BL worse than any other xenos. Yeah, Tau, Daemons and Eldar lose to the Imperium, but they also have a ton of wins, too. (There is an entire trilogy centered around Eldar spanking Imperium for example, which includes a Space Marine chapter being all but extinguished.)

There also plenty of Chaos centered books that are all about CSM handing it to the Imperium (Night Lords trilogy, Iron Warriors omnibus to name a few).

So you can't really hide behind any perceived GW bias for the Imperium here.

Orks are necks to be stepped on in most novels because they're a goofy race of cockney accented fodder and they have the numbers to not go extinct because of it.

Wait, there's an Iron Warriors Omnibus? Where the hell can I buy that and why has that never made an appearance in my bookstore?
Although I guess it'll unfortunately be filled with less than stellar stories about Honsou.

 Melissia wrote:
Just because the BL writers are incompetent doesn't mean the lore that exists is bad

At least that's what CSM players keep telling me.

What are you referencing?

I still wish they would write an Ork centered book that has them as the masters of dark comedy that they are. Hoorah for Hyperbole

 Wyzilla wrote:
Wait, there's an Iron Warriors Omnibus? Where the hell can I buy that

Found it on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Warriors-Omnibus-Warhammer-000/dp/1849701393

A hefty pricetag though.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Wait, there's an Iron Warriors Omnibus? Where the hell can I buy that

Found it on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Warriors-Omnibus-Warhammer-000/dp/1849701393

A hefty pricetag though.

That is the number one thing I utterly DESPISE about the Black Library and GW, attempting to manipulate the prices by printing books for limited amounts of time and discontinuing them, causing people to rush to buy them and inflating the price. It's terrible marketing in the long run and you'll notice that no other intelligent publisher does it. Why? Because it's moronic.. It's the same reason why I've never been able to read Blood Reaver of the Talos Trilogy, because for some stupid reason a book published in 2011 is OUT OF PRINT?

Yeah, hopefully someday the Black Library develops a better marketing scheme that wasn't devised by a hack marketer.

And people wonder why i pirate the gak out of BL novels.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And people wonder why i pirate the gak out of BL novels.

Amen.

Heck yes.

 Selym wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And people wonder why i pirate the gak out of BL novels.

Amen.

Amen.

Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Try Faith and Fire and Hammer and Anvil for SOB novels where they don't just show up to get killed.

In Titanicus the Chaos forces were presented as a very creepy and threatening way. The Mechanicum were shown to not be one hive mind of robot people.

As a writer I believe that any faction's story can be interesting and awesome, it just depends on the quality of story being told. If the story isn't good or the characters aren't interesting, then it won't matter if you like that faction or not, it'll still suck. (Well, I'm a little more forgiving towards factions I do like, so my theory isn't perfect.)

The fluff actually explicitly states that the mechanicum, marines, and orks are not one hive mind for their respective factions. If all marines, orks, or in most cases whatever else seems lame and one-dimensional, that's the fault of the writers handling them, when the fluff has always been very clear that each marine chapter has its own idiosynacracies, orks disperse into klans based on their own personal preferences, and there are various idealogies nearly at war with each other within the inquisition, ecclesiarchy, and mechanicus, and has provided examples for all of them.

There are many things I don't like about various factions, but for most of them, "one-dimensional" isn't one of them. The warhammer 40k writers (be they studio, FFG, or Forge World) generally go out of their way to leave a huge large variety of options for you, the player, and for the writers to create their own personalized chapter/klan/whatever within most factions.

Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders. Hell, it looks like they might even be trying to give the tyranids of all things (the faction that's one-dimensional ON PURPOSE) some more personalization options if rumours of the latest codex are true.

That said, some have more options than others. It's just bizarre that some of the factions with the MOST options are being touted as one-dimensional.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The fluff actually explicitly states that the mechanicum, marines, and orks are not one hive mind for their respective factions. If all marines, orks, or in most cases whatever else seems lame and one-dimensional, that's the fault of the writers handling them, when the fluff has always been very clear that each marine chapter has its own idiosynacracies, orks disperse into klans based on their own personal preferences, and there are various idealogies nearly at war with each other within the inquisition, ecclesiarchy, and mechanicus, and has provided examples for all of them.

There are many things I don't like about various factions, but for most of them, "one-dimensional" isn't one of them. The warhammer 40k writers (be they studio, FFG, or Forge World) generally go out of their way to leave a huge large variety of options for you, the player, and for the writers to create their own personalized chapter/klan/whatever within most factions.

Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders. Hell, it looks like they might even be trying to give the tyranids of all things (the faction that's one-dimensional ON PURPOSE) some more personalization options if rumours of the latest codex are true.

That said, some have more options than others. It's just bizarre that some of the factions with the MOST options are being touted as one-dimensional.

This is part of the reason why I love Chaos and the Chaos Space Marines so much. They're the most widely varied faction in W40K and are best described as a roaming band of pirate lords that come in every possible flavor imaginable- with the personal customization being near limitless. Their motivations can nearly be anything, even those of the loyalists, who are a bit more constricted.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders.

Indeed. In fact, this is stated to be a regular thing in their 6E codex, with it being common for detatchments of Sisters to develop their own identities and eventually "split off" into Minor Orders (I put spit off into quotation marks since, nominally, they're still under the command of the Major Order they're descended from). So it seems that the writers are keen to emphasise that there's plenty of customisability in an army that can appear rather rigid in terms of what you can do with it.

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Steel Confessors, assuming I remember the name right. It's studio fluff too, to the point where GW made a life-sized replica statue of one, if I recall correctly (or was it another chapter they made a statue of? Pretty sure it was a steel confessor, though). The amount of flexibility one has with designing a space marine chapter, its personality (and bear in mind the fluff is very explicit that even WITHIN a space marine chapter, each marine has his own individual personality), and origins is huge. The same goes for most other factions but marines especially seem to get a lot of love in this regard (or, at the very least, the largest number of official examples of what one can do with them).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

Honestly I kinda see SW and GK more as sub-factions than factions. Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Blood Angels fall under that wierd area where they were juuust different enough from other marine chapters that they could have their own codex to represent their unique rule sets but they're still generally marines, for the most part (well, in the Dark Angel's case, they were MADE "juuuuust different enough" since their base concept IMHO doesn't really require a separate codex at all). I figure with the advent of Chapter Tactics which allowed for more differentiation within Codex: Space Marines, BT could now be represented by that codex instead, although I can't help but think most of the others just barely scraped by to varying degrees with remaining independent (or the codex writers figured the book was big enough already).

....well, that and $$$$$$$$$$$, obviously.

......honestly if GW felt like it, they could probably put them all into Codex Space Marines, besides the Space Wolves, and only then because some silly joker decided to switch around the points costs of the units to try to differentiate the wolves a bit more (now the devastator and scout marines are vets and the assault marines the neophytes with the tactical marines as the in-betweens, and point-costed accordingly!!!!). Blood Angels are kinda already there since they've yet to get a new codex and have "gone digital". But C:SM is big enough already, I suppose.

 Wyzilla wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The fluff actually explicitly states that the mechanicum, marines, and orks are not one hive mind for their respective factions. If all marines, orks, or in most cases whatever else seems lame and one-dimensional, that's the fault of the writers handling them, when the fluff has always been very clear that each marine chapter has its own idiosynacracies, orks disperse into klans based on their own personal preferences, and there are various idealogies nearly at war with each other within the inquisition, ecclesiarchy, and mechanicus, and has provided examples for all of them.

There are many things I don't like about various factions, but for most of them, "one-dimensional" isn't one of them. The warhammer 40k writers (be they studio, FFG, or Forge World) generally go out of their way to leave a huge large variety of options for you, the player, and for the writers to create their own personalized chapter/klan/whatever within most factions.

Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders. Hell, it looks like they might even be trying to give the tyranids of all things (the faction that's one-dimensional ON PURPOSE) some more personalization options if rumours of the latest codex are true.

That said, some have more options than others. It's just bizarre that some of the factions with the MOST options are being touted as one-dimensional.

This is part of the reason why I love Chaos and the Chaos Space Marines so much. They're the most widely varied faction in W40K and are best described as a roaming band of pirate lords that come in every possible flavor imaginable- with the personal customization being near limitless. Their motivations can nearly be anything, even those of the loyalists, who are a bit more constricted.

Meh save for the Word Bearers omnibus I typically find chaos presented as less evil and more space marines who no longer follow the Emperor. I personal,y just imagine them as more detached, soulless and evil beings than how they are portrayed currently.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Steel Confessors, assuming I remember the name right. It's studio fluff too, to the point where GW made a life-sized replica statue of one, if I recall correctly (or was it another chapter they made a statue of? Pretty sure it was a steel confessor, though). The amount of flexibility one has with designing a space marine chapter, its personality (and bear in mind the fluff is very explicit that even WITHIN a space marine chapter, each marine has his own individual personality), and origins is huge. The same goes for most other factions but marines especially seem to get a lot of love in this regard (or, at the very least, the largest number of official examples of what one can do with them).




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 Troike wrote:

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

Honestly I kinda see SW and GK more as sub-factions than factions. Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Blood Angels fall under that wierd area where they were juuust different enough from other marine chapters that they could have their own codex to represent their unique rule sets but they're still generally marines, for the most part (well, in the Dark Angel's case, they were MADE "juuuuust different enough" since their base concept IMHO doesn't really require a separate codex at all). I figure with the advent of Chapter Tactics which allowed for more differentiation within Codex: Space Marines, BT could now be represented by that codex instead, although I can't help but think most of the others just barely scraped by to varying degrees with remaining independent (or the codex writers figured the book was big enough already).

....well, that and $$$$$$$$$$$, obviously.

......honestly if GW felt like it, they could probably put them all into Codex Space Marines, besides the Space Wolves, and only then because some silly joker decided to switch around the points costs of the units to try to differentiate the wolves a bit more (now the devastator and scout marines are vets and the assault marines the neophytes with the tactical marines as the in-betweens, and point-costed accordingly!!!!). Blood Angels are kinda already there since they've yet to get a new codex and have "gone digital". But C:SM is big enough already, I suppose.

I love the current C:SM. It's actually nearly worth the money it's sold for!

For example in Flesh and Iron they are depicted more as freedom fighters on roids.

XXXX

TiamatRoar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Steel Confessors, assuming I remember the name right. It's studio fluff too, to the point where GW made a life-sized replica statue of one, if I recall correctly (or was it another chapter they made a statue of? Pretty sure it was a steel confessor, though). The amount of flexibility one has with designing a space marine chapter, its personality (and bear in mind the fluff is very explicit that even WITHIN a space marine chapter, each marine has his own individual personality), and origins is huge. The same goes for most other factions but marines especially seem to get a lot of love in this regard (or, at the very least, the largest number of official examples of what one can do with them).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

Honestly I kinda see SW and GK more as sub-factions than factions. Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Blood Angels fall under that wierd area where they were juuust different enough from other marine chapters that they could have their own codex to represent their unique rule sets but they're still generally marines, for the most part (well, in the Dark Angel's case, they were MADE "juuuuust different enough" since their base concept IMHO doesn't really require a separate codex at all). I figure with the advent of Chapter Tactics which allowed for more differentiation within Codex: Space Marines, BT could now be represented by that codex instead, although I can't help but think most of the others just barely scraped by to varying degrees with remaining independent (or the codex writers figured the book was big enough already).

....well, that and $$$$$$$$$$$, obviously.

......honestly if GW felt like it, they could probably put them all into Codex Space Marines, besides the Space Wolves, and only then because some silly joker decided to switch around the points costs of the units to try to differentiate the wolves a bit more (now the devastator and scout marines are vets and the assault marines the neophytes with the tactical marines as the in-betweens, and point-costed accordingly!!!!). Blood Angels are kinda already there since they've yet to get a new codex and have "gone digital". But C:SM is big enough already, I suppose.

Not big enough. If CSM deserves a single codex to represent ancient legions, newly fallen, and everything else, then I think all SM can be tossed together as well Joking aside, it's probably just because they keep DA as the experiment chapter whilst BA are mainly here because of Angel's Descent and you can't have wolves without vampries . But yeah I'd concur to SW and GK being sub-factions.

C:CSM really needs to be made just as big as C:SM. Well, maybe they'll get it right with the next edition. If only C:CSM 6th Edition came out AFTER C:SM 6th Edition did (and by then, GW presumably have realized they could make things more awesome as well as make more money by having C:CSM be a super huge codex, too), things might have been different for Chaos Space Marines. As it is, right now C:CSM feels more like 5.5th Edition, or C:SM feels more like 6.5th edition. One or the other (but probably not both)

Chaos Space Marines as they are right now are portrayed pretty badly a lot of the time. Again, this is more the fault of tcertain story writers... well, usually. The codex/background fluff sometimes states and shows there really is more to them than one dimensional or childish villainy. It just doesn't do it as much as it should, in my opinion. I know the Chaos gods in general are supposed to be the bad guys (relatively, and far as I know) but things are even more grim dark IMHO if the bad guys actually have a point, and while some writers realize that, others... don't.

I agree that in some aspects it does seem lame and childish how they turned, but it can vary by writer. Some writers give them a good (in my opinion) or at least, believable reason/background why certain legions or chapters turned, and others... don't.

Eldars...dying race, lots of ancient knowledge..certain they can somehow cut a deal with the Ordo Xeno for some protection (there is notes of the Navy/Inquisition/Imperium going out of their way to ignore worlds or certain sectors of space where Eldars go to) and help to make a solid front against Chaos and/or the Necrons, similar to Warhammer Fantasy; the Elves are dying, and while they know Mankind is flawed and weak, they also know their salvation rest with them.

Buuuutt instead of being logical and open, they got to feel us their cryptic BS which goes a little like this (dramatized) bit;

Eldar: "Be warned Astartes/General/Inquisitor, for while we appear as a torn in your side, we are merely shielding you from a greater thread!"
Astartes/General/Inquisitor "Really now.of what 'thread' you speak of, Eldar?"
Eldar "Such a calamity will bring untold suffering and countless death upon your polluted, primitive world, and even your mightiest of weapons could not bring this catastrophe to an end!"
Astartes/General/Inquisitor "Yes, you said it was something big, so, who or what, is it?..Sorta loosing my patience here..."
Eldar "We have once faced this darkness and were almost reduced to extinction! but now, we are prepared to face it and perhaps now, life will go on in the Galaxy."
Astartes/General/Inquisitor "That does it...OUT WITH THE NAME XENO 'LEAST YOU WISH TO FEEL MY WRATH!"
Eldar "foolish Mon'keigh! Your blindness will doom this world and everyone on it! We offered you our help but you have refused us! So be it!" *Disappear in the webway to eat ice cream and be grumpy.*

Seriously, if you were so smart and intelligent, you would still have an Empire and not have lost it all and brought forth the birth of Slaanesh.

TiamatRoar wrote:
C:CSM really needs to be made just as big as C:SM. Well, maybe they'll get it right with the next edition. If only C:CSM 6th Edition came out AFTER C:SM 6th Edition did (and by then, GW presumably have realized they could make things more awesome as well as make more money by having C:CSM be a super huge codex, too), things might have been different for Chaos Space Marines. As it is, right now C:CSM feels more like 5.5th Edition, or C:SM feels more like 6.5th edition. One or the other (but probably not both)

Chaos Space Marines as they are right now are portrayed pretty badly a lot of the time. Again, this is more the fault of tcertain story writers... well, usually. The codex/background fluff sometimes states and shows there really is more to them than one dimensional or childish villainy. It just doesn't do it as much as it should, in my opinion. I know the Chaos gods in general are supposed to be the bad guys (relatively, and far as I know) but things are even more grim dark IMHO if the bad guys actually have a point, and while some writers realize that, others... don't.

I agree that in some aspects it does seem lame and childish how they turned, but it can vary by writer. Some writers give them a good (in my opinion) or at least, believable reason/background why certain legions or chapters turned, and others... don't.

Yeah, C:CSM sucks pretty badly. I took a look at it and I sure am never buying a physical copy of it. While it's fairly decent, it's not near the good quality of C:SM is and while I can live without faction rules, I don't understand why they removed. Right now Forge World's Horus Heresy books are a better source of information, fluff, and rules than C:CSM, which is silly in a sad way.

EDIT-

With the Eldar you also have to remember that the Eldar are Craftworld Eldar and are like a nutty and super-conservative cult religion in real life. Sure, they saved their species from being OMNOM'D or turning into the Dark Eldar, but they remain a nutty super conservative cult predicting the apocalypse, only unlike the ones in real life, they were right.