angelofvengeance wrote:


You are so SO wrong lol. Just did a quick search on Amazon now- they sell 5'x3' flags lol

If the Confederate flag is finally going to be consigned to museums as an ugly symbol of racism, what about the beloved film offering the most iconic glimpse of that flag in American culture?
I’m talking, of course, about “Gone with the Wind,’’ which won a then-record eight Academy Awards, including Best Picture of 1939, and still ranks as the all-time North American box-office champ with $1.6 billion worth of tickets sold here when adjusted for inflation.

True, “Gone with the Wind’’ isn’t as blatantly and virulently racist as D.W. Griffith’s “Birth of a Nation,’’ which was considered one of the greatest American movies as late as the early 1960s, but is now rarely screened, even in museums.
The more subtle racism of “Gone with the Wind’’ is in some ways more insidious, going to great lengths to enshrine the myth that the Civil War wasn’t fought over slavery — an institution the film unabashedly romanticizes.
When I reviewed the graphically honest “12 Years a Slave’’ in 2013, I noted, “It will be impossible to ever look at ‘Gone with the Wind’ the same way.’’
Apparently someone at the motion picture academy — possibly president Cheryl Boone Isaacs, who is African-American — agrees. “The Wizard of Oz’’ got a special 75th anniversary tribute at the same Oscar ceremony where “12 Years’’ won Best Picture. “Gone with the Wind,’’ which beat “The Wizard of Oz’’ for Best Picture, barely rated a mention during an Oscar segment on 1939 movies.
Based on a best seller by die-hard Southerner Margaret Mitchell, “Gone with the Wind’’ buys heavily into the idea that the Civil War was a noble lost cause and casts Yankees and Yankee sympathizers as the villains, both during the war and during Reconstruction.
Producer David O. Selznick, a liberal Jew, did temper Mitchell’s vision somewhat, banning the N-word but allowing a lot of references to “darkies.’’ There is no direct reference in the film to the Ku Klux Klan, but it’s still pretty clear that the unseen “political meeting’’ that Rhett and Ashley attend after the attack on Scarlett involves the activities of vigilantes in white sheets.
Warner Bros., which has owned “GWTW’’ since 1996, resisted any analysis of the film’s problematic racial politics until a 26-minute featurette was included with last year’s Blu-ray set. In it, black and white scholars discuss the film’s embrace of the view propagated by (mostly Southern) post-Civil War historians that slavery wasn’t such a bad thing.

We now know better, even if there are many other great things about “GWTW’’ — among them its sweep, its gorgeous Technicolor photography and its unforgettable performances by Vivien Leigh, Clark Gable and the film’s emotional center, Hattie McDaniel, the first black performer to win an Oscar as the subversive Mammy.

But what does it say about us as a nation if we continue to embrace a movie that, in the final analysis, stands for many of the same things as the Confederate flag that flutters so dramatically over the dead and wounded soldiers at the Atlanta train station just before the “GWTW’’ intermission?
Warner Bros. just stopped licensing another of pop culture’s most visible uses of the Confederate flag — toy replicas of the General Lee, an orange Dodge Charger from “The Dukes of Hazzard’’ — as retailers like Amazon and Walmart have finally backed away from selling merchandise with that racist symbol.
That studio sent “Gone with the Wind’’ back into theaters for its 75th anniversary in partnership with its sister company Turner Classic Movies in 2014, but I have a feeling the movie’s days as a cash cow are numbered. It’s showing on July 4 at the Museum of Modern Art as part of the museum’s salute to the 100th anniversary of Technicolor — and maybe that’s where this much-loved but undeniably racist artifact really belongs.

Prestor Jon wrote:
It's just a flag. It doesn't make anybody be or do anything.

People behaved differently, had different standards, morals, beliefs and knowledge in different eras. The Confederate flag shouldn't be flown over state and federal buildings because it's not longer a flag that represents a state or the nation. Private citizens can fly whatever flags they want for any reason they want. The mere symbol itself holds no meaning beyond what an individual ascribes to it.

The Dukes of Hazzard wasn't an evil bigotted racist tv show just because Bo and Luke painted the battle flag on the roof of their car.

If we're going to get outraged over flags that were flown by people whose beliefs and actions we now find unacceptable we need to be upset over most of the flags that exist.

Japan committed horrible racist genocidal atrocities against civilians during WWII and evil war crimes against POWs. Should I be offended by Japan's flag? Does anyone who chooses to wear or fly that flag automatically give his/her tacit approval to the crimes committed under the auspices of that flag?

Apple has pulled everything from the App Store that features a Confederate flag, regardless of context

If you've been watching the news recently, you'll know of the huge debate in the U.S over the role of the Confederate flag in contemporary America. Many see it as a reminder of the many pre-Civil War injustices while others see it simply as a way to honor the soldiers who died for the Confederacy. Many large US companies, like Walmart and Amazon, have already banned the sale of any Confederate flag merchandise as a reaction to the recent events. Now, it appears that Apple has decided to join them by pulling many Civil War wargames from the App Store. As of the writing of this story, games like Ultimate General: Gettysburg and all the Hunted Cow Civil War games are nowhere to be found. Apple is famous for reaching for the axe rather than the scalpel when it comes to political issues (like rejecting Hunted Cow's Tank Battle 1942 for depicting Germans and Russians as enemies), so this move doesn't come as a great surprise.

Apple's Tim Cook has recently spoke against displaying the Confederate flag, so I suppose this development was to be expected. However, censoring historical games (if that is indeed the reason why the game's have been pulled) is always very tricky because those games don't glorify or promote a cause but, rather, represent historical events using the symbols and insignia of the period. However, I can also see the political and social pressure mounting at the moment, which makes pulling the games the "safest" action for Apple. What do you think? If Apple has indeed pulled the games for displaying the Confederate flag, is Apple's action justified, or was there another way to eradicate racism and remove the symbols and words that feed it, as Tim Cook put it?

Update: It's looking like Apple has pulled everything from the App Store that features a Confederate flag, regardless of context. The reasoning Apple is sending developers is "...because it includes images of the confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways." We just spoke with Andrew from HexWar Games, who have released many historical strategy games. He insists, "We're in no way sympathetic to the use of the flag in an offensive way, we used it purely because historically that was the flag that was used at the time."

HexWar Games plans on attempting to re-submit their games using the lesser-known 1861 version of the Confederate flag. But, who knows if that will even be approved. No one is sure yet if Apple is banning all mention of the Confederacy, or just the specific image of the flag which has since become such a hot button issue in the USA.

Update 2: We just received a statement from Maxim Zasov of Game Labs, the developers of Ultimate General: Gettysburg. It is as follows:

We accept Apple's decision and understand that this is a sensitive issue for the American Nation. We wanted our game to be the most accurate, historical, playable reference of the Battle of Gettysburg. All historical commanders, unit composition and weaponry, key geographical locations to the smallest streams or farms are recreated in our game's battlefield.

We receive a lot of letters of gratitude from American teachers who use our game in history curriculum to let kids experience one of the most important battles in American history from the Commander's perspective.

Spielberg’s "Schindler's List" did not try to amend his movie to look more comfortable. The historical "Gettysburg" movie (1993) is still on iTunes. We believe that all historical art forms: books, movies, or games such as ours, help to learn and understand history, depicting events as they were. True stories are more important to us than money.

Therefore we are not going to amend the game's content and Ultimate General: Gettysburg will no longer be available on AppStore. We really hope that Apple’s decision will achieve the desired results. We can’t change history, but we can change the future.

Ultimate General: Gettysburg wasn't alone in focusing on tasteful, historical accuracy. The vast majority of the Civil War strategy games I've played on my iPad put massive amounts of emphasis on focusing on the historical significance of the battles, units, locations, and generals included. We've also heard that these types of games have been used as teaching tools, making their removal from the App Store feel that much more reactionary.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
It's just a flag. It doesn't make anybody be or do anything.

People behaved differently, had different standards, morals, beliefs and knowledge in different eras. The Confederate flag shouldn't be flown over state and federal buildings because it's not longer a flag that represents a state or the nation. Private citizens can fly whatever flags they want for any reason they want. The mere symbol itself holds no meaning beyond what an individual ascribes to it.

The Dukes of Hazzard wasn't an evil bigotted racist tv show just because Bo and Luke painted the battle flag on the roof of their car.

If we're going to get outraged over flags that were flown by people whose beliefs and actions we now find unacceptable we need to be upset over most of the flags that exist.

Japan committed horrible racist genocidal atrocities against civilians during WWII and evil war crimes against POWs. Should I be offended by Japan's flag? Does anyone who chooses to wear or fly that flag automatically give his/her tacit approval to the crimes committed under the auspices of that flag?

A lot of Koreans and Chinese are offended by the Japanese flag, especially the rising sun version. Similar to the CSA flag it has got an association with right wing extremist nationalists.

 Manchu wrote:

Apple has pulled everything from the App Store that features a Confederate flag, regardless of context

http://toucharcade.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-confederate-flag/

If you've been watching the news recently, you'll know of the huge debate in the U.S over the role of the Confederate flag in contemporary America. Many see it as a reminder of the many pre-Civil War injustices while others see it simply as a way to honor the soldiers who died for the Confederacy. Many large US companies, like Walmart and Amazon, have already banned the sale of any Confederate flag merchandise as a reaction to the recent events. Now, it appears that Apple has decided to join them by pulling many Civil War wargames from the App Store. As of the writing of this story, games like Ultimate General: Gettysburg and all the Hunted Cow Civil War games are nowhere to be found. Apple is famous for reaching for the axe rather than the scalpel when it comes to political issues (like rejecting Hunted Cow's Tank Battle 1942 for depicting Germans and Russians as enemies), so this move doesn't come as a great surprise.

Apple's Tim Cook has recently spoke against displaying the Confederate flag, so I suppose this development was to be expected. However, censoring historical games (if that is indeed the reason why the game's have been pulled) is always very tricky because those games don't glorify or promote a cause but, rather, represent historical events using the symbols and insignia of the period. However, I can also see the political and social pressure mounting at the moment, which makes pulling the games the "safest" action for Apple. What do you think? If Apple has indeed pulled the games for displaying the Confederate flag, is Apple's action justified, or was there another way to eradicate racism and remove the symbols and words that feed it, as Tim Cook put it?

Update: It's looking like Apple has pulled everything from the App Store that features a Confederate flag, regardless of context. The reasoning Apple is sending developers is "...because it includes images of the confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways." We just spoke with Andrew from HexWar Games, who have released many historical strategy games. He insists, "We're in no way sympathetic to the use of the flag in an offensive way, we used it purely because historically that was the flag that was used at the time."

HexWar Games plans on attempting to re-submit their games using the lesser-known 1861 version of the Confederate flag. But, who knows if that will even be approved. No one is sure yet if Apple is banning all mention of the Confederacy, or just the specific image of the flag which has since become such a hot button issue in the USA.

Update 2: We just received a statement from Maxim Zasov of Game Labs, the developers of Ultimate General: Gettysburg. It is as follows:

We accept Apple's decision and understand that this is a sensitive issue for the American Nation. We wanted our game to be the most accurate, historical, playable reference of the Battle of Gettysburg. All historical commanders, unit composition and weaponry, key geographical locations to the smallest streams or farms are recreated in our game's battlefield.

We receive a lot of letters of gratitude from American teachers who use our game in history curriculum to let kids experience one of the most important battles in American history from the Commander's perspective.

Spielberg’s "Schindler's List" did not try to amend his movie to look more comfortable. The historical "Gettysburg" movie (1993) is still on iTunes. We believe that all historical art forms: books, movies, or games such as ours, help to learn and understand history, depicting events as they were. True stories are more important to us than money.

Therefore we are not going to amend the game's content and Ultimate General: Gettysburg will no longer be available on AppStore. We really hope that Apple’s decision will achieve the desired results. We can’t change history, but we can change the future.

Ultimate General: Gettysburg wasn't alone in focusing on tasteful, historical accuracy. The vast majority of the Civil War strategy games I've played on my iPad put massive amounts of emphasis on focusing on the historical significance of the battles, units, locations, and generals included. We've also heard that these types of games have been used as teaching tools, making their removal from the App Store feel that much more reactionary.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Apple has pulled everything from the App Store that features a Confederate flag, regardless of context

http://toucharcade.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-confederate-flag/

If you've been watching the news recently, you'll know of the huge debate in the U.S over the role of the Confederate flag in contemporary America. Many see it as a reminder of the many pre-Civil War injustices while others see it simply as a way to honor the soldiers who died for the Confederacy. Many large US companies, like Walmart and Amazon, have already banned the sale of any Confederate flag merchandise as a reaction to the recent events. Now, it appears that Apple has decided to join them by pulling many Civil War wargames from the App Store. As of the writing of this story, games like Ultimate General: Gettysburg and all the Hunted Cow Civil War games are nowhere to be found. Apple is famous for reaching for the axe rather than the scalpel when it comes to political issues (like rejecting Hunted Cow's Tank Battle 1942 for depicting Germans and Russians as enemies), so this move doesn't come as a great surprise.

Apple's Tim Cook has recently spoke against displaying the Confederate flag, so I suppose this development was to be expected. However, censoring historical games (if that is indeed the reason why the game's have been pulled) is always very tricky because those games don't glorify or promote a cause but, rather, represent historical events using the symbols and insignia of the period. However, I can also see the political and social pressure mounting at the moment, which makes pulling the games the "safest" action for Apple. What do you think? If Apple has indeed pulled the games for displaying the Confederate flag, is Apple's action justified, or was there another way to eradicate racism and remove the symbols and words that feed it, as Tim Cook put it?

Update: It's looking like Apple has pulled everything from the App Store that features a Confederate flag, regardless of context. The reasoning Apple is sending developers is "...because it includes images of the confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways." We just spoke with Andrew from HexWar Games, who have released many historical strategy games. He insists, "We're in no way sympathetic to the use of the flag in an offensive way, we used it purely because historically that was the flag that was used at the time."

HexWar Games plans on attempting to re-submit their games using the lesser-known 1861 version of the Confederate flag. But, who knows if that will even be approved. No one is sure yet if Apple is banning all mention of the Confederacy, or just the specific image of the flag which has since become such a hot button issue in the USA.

Update 2: We just received a statement from Maxim Zasov of Game Labs, the developers of Ultimate General: Gettysburg. It is as follows:

We accept Apple's decision and understand that this is a sensitive issue for the American Nation. We wanted our game to be the most accurate, historical, playable reference of the Battle of Gettysburg. All historical commanders, unit composition and weaponry, key geographical locations to the smallest streams or farms are recreated in our game's battlefield.

We receive a lot of letters of gratitude from American teachers who use our game in history curriculum to let kids experience one of the most important battles in American history from the Commander's perspective.

Spielberg’s "Schindler's List" did not try to amend his movie to look more comfortable. The historical "Gettysburg" movie (1993) is still on iTunes. We believe that all historical art forms: books, movies, or games such as ours, help to learn and understand history, depicting events as they were. True stories are more important to us than money.

Therefore we are not going to amend the game's content and Ultimate General: Gettysburg will no longer be available on AppStore. We really hope that Apple’s decision will achieve the desired results. We can’t change history, but we can change the future.

Ultimate General: Gettysburg wasn't alone in focusing on tasteful, historical accuracy. The vast majority of the Civil War strategy games I've played on my iPad put massive amounts of emphasis on focusing on the historical significance of the battles, units, locations, and generals included. We've also heard that these types of games have been used as teaching tools, making their removal from the App Store feel that much more reactionary.

I saw that. I looked up one or two of the games, they really are ACW civil war battle games. One just had rebel/union flags representing the different units so you can tell who they were. Amazingly stupid.

nkelsch wrote:
Stop calling the the confederate flag "stars and bars".

It is the southern cross. Stars and bars is a totally different flag which looks nothing like the confederate battle flag with the southern cross on it.

Appropriating historical references of the "stars and bars" to the "southern cross" is inaccurate and is totally invalid for discussing the racial overtones of the southern cross.

 Manchu wrote:
The battle flag is commonly mistakenly referred to as the "stars and bars." Just because the mistake is common doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

 Manchu wrote:
The battle flag is commonly mistakenly referred to as the "stars and bars." Just because the mistake is common doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

 Manchu wrote:
The battle flag is commonly mistakenly referred to as the "stars and bars." Just because the mistake is common doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

 Frazzled wrote:

2. less philosophically people getting on their horse about it are more than welcome to tell them that. Reminder, this is not a crowd that takes criticism...well...

 Frazzled wrote:
When growing up, both "stars and bars" and "Southern Cross" referred to the same flag. Almost no one ever said Southern Cross.

Inaccurate or not you wouldn't have brought up the inaccuracy to that particular pickup driving crowd if you liked having your teeth in your mouth.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The battle flag is commonly mistakenly referred to as the "stars and bars." Just because the mistake is common doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

1. Philosophically, is it a mistake then? If everyone refers to facial tissue as kleenex, doesn't it (as courts have ruled) become reasonably accepted language? EDIT: Ensis beat me to it.
2. less philosophically people getting on their horse about it are more than welcome to tell them that. Reminder, this is not a crowd that takes criticism...well...

 Frazzled wrote:
Philosophically

 Frazzled wrote:
Reminder, this is not a crowd that takes criticism...well...

 Orlanth wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The battle flag is commonly mistakenly referred to as the "stars and bars." Just because the mistake is common doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

Actually not.

 Orlanth wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Stop calling the the confederate flag "stars and bars".

It is the southern cross. Stars and bars is a totally different flag which looks nothing like the confederate battle flag with the southern cross on it.

Appropriating historical references of the "stars and bars" to the "southern cross" is inaccurate and is totally invalid for discussing the racial overtones of the southern cross.

I was referring to the stars and bars, as was the thread for the most part, we are right to do so.



- It is a genuine Confederate flag.
- It is the most widely known Confederate flag.
- It is a valid symbol of the Confederacy.
- It is the flag most often seen in popular culture and modern culture relating to states that once made up the Confederacy.
- It is the flag highlighted in current press controversy.
- It was not the formal national flag of the Confederate States of America.
- It is the emblem of the KKK

 Manchu wrote:

The battle flag is commonly mistakenly referred to as the "stars and bars." Just because the mistake is common doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

Actually not <snip explanation> .

Actually yes. A tu quoque argument about making similar mistakes doesn't change that.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Oh I get it now, southern pride really just means a proud democrat

sirlynchmob wrote:

Fixed it for you.

 Frazzled wrote:
When growing up, both "stars and bars" and "Southern Cross" referred to the same flag. Almost no one ever said Southern Cross.

Inaccurate or not you wouldn't have brought up the inaccuracy to that particular pickup driving crowd if you liked having your teeth in your mouth.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The battle flag is commonly mistakenly referred to as the "stars and bars." Just because the mistake is common doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

But it's a mistake that is done so often that it's basically become the "truth", in much the same way that people throw out the terms "liberal" and "conservative" when they really mean "progressive liberal" and "classical liberal" for the people being talked about.

 Orlanth wrote:
I bothered to post an explaination, you just denied.

 Orlanth wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Fixed it for you.

You aren't me so you can get away with that. Fixed it for your comments can have a surprising reaction from mods.

To refix it back, if I dare.

- It's hijacked by the KKK.

It's not even an extreme example of hijacking a prior cultural symbol. The swastika is a better example, its actually a Hindu peace sign, then the Nazis got hold of it..

 generalgrog wrote:
So I think I have come full circle on this issue. I understand why, and I sympathize as to why southerners don't think it's an issue. In fact growing up in the south, watching dukes of hazard, and wearing t-shirts with the flag, I never considered it hateful, or even a problem. In fact if you didn't like it, too bad... I still don't consider it hateful, but I do think it's inconsiderate, not as bad as Nazi flag, but almost.

I mean the Nazi flag flown, even for the best intentions(if that were even possible), is still a Nazi flag.

I am the point that the confederate flag not be flown on state or US government property, and belongs in a museum.

If people want to fly it at their homes, that's their right, but take it down from public buildings. It represents too much hurt for minorities, and especially African American descendants of slaves.

What say Dakka?

GG

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
It's just a flag. It doesn't make anybody be or do anything.

People behaved differently, had different standards, morals, beliefs and knowledge in different eras. The Confederate flag shouldn't be flown over state and federal buildings because it's not longer a flag that represents a state or the nation. Private citizens can fly whatever flags they want for any reason they want. The mere symbol itself holds no meaning beyond what an individual ascribes to it.

The Dukes of Hazzard wasn't an evil bigotted racist tv show just because Bo and Luke painted the battle flag on the roof of their car.

If we're going to get outraged over flags that were flown by people whose beliefs and actions we now find unacceptable we need to be upset over most of the flags that exist.

Japan committed horrible racist genocidal atrocities against civilians during WWII and evil war crimes against POWs. Should I be offended by Japan's flag? Does anyone who chooses to wear or fly that flag automatically give his/her tacit approval to the crimes committed under the auspices of that flag?

A lot of Koreans and Chinese are offended by the Japanese flag, especially the rising sun version. Similar to the CSA flag it has got an association with right wing extremist nationalists.

That's my point, most flags can be associated with horrors committed against others and have a group or groups of people who despise it or are offended by it. Yet, they're still just symbols on cloth, they hold no sway over people and don't need to be censored. There's no need to be myopic and get outraged over one particular flag while ignoring all the others.