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I use CWE as examples the most, because I'm most familiar with the numbers.

I'm quite confident that a PG/Combi Tac squad will outperform Guardsmen at clearing Tacs off an objective.

Bharring wrote:
Rangers? Harder to remove than Tacs? In cover, they might approach it per-model (remember: T3 and poor save). Out of cover, nowhere close. But they cost a hell of a lot more, per model, than Marines.

Harlequin ShadowSeers aren't free. Further, a 4++ is nice against Lascannons and such, but until you have a -2 or -3 (in cover) on every shot, Marines are still much more survivable per model. Even with a ShadowSeer, Harlequins will typically be less durable than Marines. And, again, Marines are cheaper.

Of course Harlequins and Genestealers are better in CC. It's what they were made for. The immediate discussion was about being called out for claiming marines were better than *average* at not being cleared off an objective. Both are much, much worse. Overall, I'd put Harlequins in about the same league as Tac Marines. But not for ability to stay on an objective.

rangers are -1 to hit and have +2 cover save...i mean...why would anyone shoot at that. You conceal them and they are -2 to hit. That's how you hold a freaking objective man.

@Xeno,
The one match I know the results of from the top list in the tourny, the winner did table an AM player. But the troops (lascannons) were an incredible part of that.

Does anyone know the frequency at GTs with which games end with a tabling?

Bharring wrote:
I use CWE as examples the most, because I'm most familiar with the numbers.

I'm quite confident that a PG/Combi Tac squad will outperform Guardsmen at clearing Tacs off an objective.

Not if they're dead. Guardsmen aren't there to clear anything. They're there to buy time for the big guns to table you. Troops in general are there to buy time. So which troops give you the best coverage and buy you the most time? Not marines. They are good enough in this case because 72 asscannon shots rerolling everything removes the opposition really fast.

You keep trying to have marines DO things. That's not how 8th works. That's why marines are just expensive liabilities. Liabilities you can mitigate by cowering in cover and using 48" standoff weapons. Combis and plasmas and meltas don't matter. They never will in 8th. A melta just makes your guy give up more points when he dies.

So lets shoot at some Rangers and some Marines. In cover.

Everyone's favorite Boltgun!

vs rangers: (1/2) hit x (2/3) wound x (1/3) failed saves
: 1 die per 9 shots

vs Marines: (2/3) hit x (1/2) wound x (1/6) failed saves
: half a guy dies per 9 shots.

So best case, to small arms, Rangers die TWICE as fast. But that's ok. They cost less than *twice as much*.

You can add a Warlock, but that's 35 points, and can't Conceal anything else on the board. And they still die faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guardsmen and Conscripts are troops that meatshield, and that's about it.

If you can't get Tacs to do things, use AM, Necrons, or Tyranids. Others have found ways to make Tacs do things.

Bharring wrote:
@Xeno,
The one match I know the results of from the top list in the tourny, the winner did table an AM player. But the troops (lascannons) were an incredible part of that.

Does anyone know the frequency at GTs with which games end with a tabling?

Well - these are time limited games so it's going to happen a lot less frequently than it happens when my friends play. We play the same missions though. So it's got to be something like 50% of games are ended by table or time limit. The real question that you should be asking is - how many games a decided by an objective secured unit?

 Marmatag wrote:

Are you for real with this? That list is 100% dependent on Guilliman. Only Ultramarines can run an army anything like this. Are you suggesting that Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and any other successor chapter can get the same mileage out of tactical marines as Ultramarines can, with Guilliman?

Quit being disingenuous for 5 seconds and really think about it.

Any chapter using Codex Space Marines can get a Chapter Master and Lieutenant for fewer than 160 points. For the cost of Guilliman, you can get Chapter Master, Lieutennant, and two more Razorbacks. Doing that, you even knock off the requirement of buying further HQs to get your Battalion, if that's what you're going for. If you're using the Salamanders Tactics, your Tactical Squads get the Guilliman buff for their Lascannons for free.

So yeah. It's a book with a crapload of options, and thinking that this is the only viable build would be really, really unimaginative.

"Well - these are time limited games so it's going to happen a lot less frequently than it happens when my friends play. We play the same missions though. So it's got to be something like 50% of games are ended by table or time limit. The real question that you should be asking is - how many games a decided by an objective secured unit?"

I know how two games ended in that tourny, but only two games:
-In one, Tac Lascannons did the bulk of the damage to 3 Baneblades, which resulted in a T4 tabling. So an ObSec unit won the game.
-In the other, an ObSec unit grabbed the relic early and brought it back to their side. So an ObSec unit won the game.

"If you can't get Tacs to do things, use AM, Necrons, or Tyranids. Others have found ways to make Tacs do things."

I don't let other people's tacs do things to me,either. This is not a phenomenon limited to just me in my experience. I regularly tabled tac heavy lists until they got gladius, and of course, lists like this in 8th.

I don't think tacs do anything remotely like what you claim against savvy and knowledgeable opponents. Scrubs, sure, They'll let you melta tacs walk right up to the shiny Russ and smoke it. Good players aren't even going to let your guys get to 12". They will physically prevent it from being a move you can legally make. You have no choice in the matter. Their movement phase dictated how it plays out.

This is why the lascannon tacs are the best in 8th Your opponent can't take the lascannon out of the equation by just moving. The shield of bodies doesn't matter when you are shooting past it. Now they have to at least move to get their mooks in double tap range.

And it's easier to prevent most of the other troops in the game from getting in range than it is to prevent Tacs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Are you for real with this? That list is 100% dependent on Guilliman. Only Ultramarines can run an army anything like this. Are you suggesting that Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and any other successor chapter can get the same mileage out of tactical marines as Ultramarines can, with Guilliman?

Quit being disingenuous for 5 seconds and really think about it.

Any chapter using Codex Space Marines can get a Chapter Master and Lieutenant for fewer than 160 points. For the cost of Guilliman, you can get Chapter Master, Lieutennant, and two more Razorbacks. Doing that, you even knock off the requirement of buying further HQs to get your Battalion, if that's what you're going for. If you're using the Salamanders Tactics, your Tactical Squads get the Guilliman buff for their Lascannons for free.

So yeah. It's a book with a crapload of options, and thinking that this is the only viable build would be really, really unimaginative.

I think it's a template for one of the few viable builds. Weapons other than lascannons for tacs are either a) too short in range b) don't kill big stuff hard enough. The fire base is going some reroll aura thing buffing the most cost effective option. I don't own asscannon razors, so I am basically hosed. I realize this now. But don't act like there a lot of viable options for marines in 8th.

Bharring wrote:
So lets shoot at some Rangers and some Marines. In cover.

Everyone's favorite Boltgun!

vs rangers: (1/2) hit x (2/3) wound x (1/3) failed saves
: 1 die per 9 shots

vs Marines: (2/3) hit x (1/2) wound x (1/6) failed saves
: half a guy dies per 9 shots.

So best case, to small arms, Rangers die TWICE as fast. But that's ok. They cost less than *twice as much*.

You can add a Warlock, but that's 35 points, and can't Conceal anything else on the board. And they still die faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guardsmen and Conscripts are troops that meatshield, and that's about it.

If you can't get Tacs to do things, use AM, Necrons, or Tyranids. Others have found ways to make Tacs do things.

your math is wrong - should be 1/3 failed saves for the rangers because they have a 3+ save in cover. conceal is also a bubble so if I so desired I could have some dark reapers hanging behind sharing that -1 to hit bubble. I agree that rangers suck - but they also serve a purpose - which gives them the edge over tacticals. It will also be interesting to see the itaolic rangers because they are going to have a -1 to hit army trait.

Bharring wrote:
And it's easier to prevent most of the other troops in the game from getting in range than it is to prevent Tacs.

But they don't need to get in range. They are just buying time for the big guns to table the marines. Conscripts can do their job with NO WEAPON AT ALL. Yes, Eldar troops suck at being troops in 8th. Sorry. Your codex will probably fix this. Coming soon: 5 pt Dire avengers.

Martel732 wrote:

No, it also worked because stormravens are really good, and so are asscannon razors. Lascannons are good, too, but this list didn't really have that many of those. Bobby G is the ultimate sheriff; hey babysits all the guns, allowing them to reroll everything and if something does it close enough to assault, he murders it instantly. Marines can obviously roll with the captain/lieutenant combo, which is about half as good for about half the cost. I guess I'm gonna base future lists off this, although I don't own a single asscannon razor. I'l probably use preds instead.

Okay. What about the chapter master/lieutennant combo? That's even closer to identical. Only thing it lacks is the murderness of Bobbute, and you could probably still make him mean enough to hurt in a pinch.

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

No, it also worked because stormravens are really good, and so are asscannon razors. Lascannons are good, too, but this list didn't really have that many of those. Bobby G is the ultimate sheriff; hey babysits all the guns, allowing them to reroll everything and if something does it close enough to assault, he murders it instantly. Marines can obviously roll with the captain/lieutenant combo, which is about half as good for about half the cost. I guess I'm gonna base future lists off this, although I don't own a single asscannon razor. I'l probably use preds instead.

Okay. What about the chapter master/lieutennant combo? That's even closer to identical. Only thing it lacks is the murderness of Bobbute, and you could probably still make him mean enough to hurt in a pinch.

I forgot about that, because I don't get those. I only get Dante, who is super overcosted. Yeah, so marines can mimic it better than BA. Go figure. Also, Bobby G is a faster than a regular captain, so if you do need to move, the bobby g party moves faster.

 daedalus wrote:

To the people who are saying that the only way the list worked was because of Rowbootay Gillaman, what do you they credit him with doing that is so irreplaceable?

This might sound like a stupid question, but you guys obviously know marines better than I do, so I'm trying to make sure I understand.

It's hard to replace re-rolls to wound. However, IMO it's not hard to make up for it with 360 points of more stuff.

Guilliman is also a combat monster, although I'm not sure how much that played into this tournament. It would be interesting to find out.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Are you for real with this? That list is 100% dependent on Guilliman. Only Ultramarines can run an army anything like this. Are you suggesting that Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and any other successor chapter can get the same mileage out of tactical marines as Ultramarines can, with Guilliman?

Quit being disingenuous for 5 seconds and really think about it.

Any chapter using Codex Space Marines can get a Chapter Master and Lieutenant for fewer than 160 points. For the cost of Guilliman, you can get Chapter Master, Lieutennant, and two more Razorbacks. Doing that, you even knock off the requirement of buying further HQs to get your Battalion, if that's what you're going for. If you're using the Salamanders Tactics, your Tactical Squads get the Guilliman buff for their Lascannons for free.

So yeah. It's a book with a crapload of options, and thinking that this is the only viable build would be really, really unimaginative.

Clearly Guilliman is the most powerful build but salamanders, and imerial fists can make a pretty potent army too.

@Xenos,
With Conceal and in cover, Rangers are as hard to remove as Tac Marines. But cost a lot more. Even before paying for the Warlock.

For the edge over the tacticals, you could give them a lascannon (nb4 "Nobody does that!"). Then they do more damage to most targets, from longer range, with better survivability. You pay more points than naked, but still fewer points than Rangers, per model.

So they're still harder to shift, but have greater purpose. Alaitoc rangers with warlocks would be more survivable. If only they'd give Raven Guard the same thing, I suppose?

So even the case you most blatantly called BS on, Tacs are harder to shift than Rangers.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

To the people who are saying that the only way the list worked was because of Rowbootay Gillaman, what do you they credit him with doing that is so irreplaceable?

This might sound like a stupid question, but you guys obviously know marines better than I do, so I'm trying to make sure I understand.

It's hard to replace re-rolls to wound. However, IMO it's not hard to make up for it with 360 points of more stuff.

Guilliman is also a combat monster, although I'm not sure how much that played into this tournament. It would be interesting to find out.

In the 10 or so games I have played he has made close combat once. Almost twice - but the unit of hellblasters he was buffing in rapid fire range kill the IK all on their own. His close combat ability is almost a non factor for ultra marines.

Bharring wrote:
Rangers? Harder to remove than Tacs? In cover, they might approach it per-model (remember: T3 and poor save).

The math agrees.


Marines in cover vs boltguns fired at 3+ to hit: 66.7% of shots hit. 33.3% of shots wound. 5.6% of shots kill.
Rangers in cover vs boltguns fired at 3+ to hit: 50% of shots hit. 33.3% of shots wound. 11.1% of shots kill.
Marines not in cover vs boltguns fired at 3+ to hit: 66.7% of shots hit. 33.3% of shots wound. 11.1% of shots kill.
Rangers not in cover vs boltguns fired at 3+ to hit: 50% of shots hit. 33.3% of shots wound. 22.2% of shots kill.

Given equivalent cover, Rangers will take twice as many wounds from basic bolter shock as marines will. Rangers in cover are equivalent to marines out of cover, but more expensive (20ppm vs 13ppm) and with less weapon options.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Are you for real with this? That list is 100% dependent on Guilliman. Only Ultramarines can run an army anything like this. Are you suggesting that Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and any other successor chapter can get the same mileage out of tactical marines as Ultramarines can, with Guilliman?

Quit being disingenuous for 5 seconds and really think about it.

Any chapter using Codex Space Marines can get a Chapter Master and Lieutenant for fewer than 160 points. For the cost of Guilliman, you can get Chapter Master, Lieutennant, and two more Razorbacks. Doing that, you even knock off the requirement of buying further HQs to get your Battalion, if that's what you're going for. If you're using the Salamanders Tactics, your Tactical Squads get the Guilliman buff for their Lascannons for free.

So yeah. It's a book with a crapload of options, and thinking that this is the only viable build would be really, really unimaginative.

I think it's a template for one of the few viable builds. Weapons other than lascannons for tacs are either a) too short in range b) don't kill big stuff hard enough. The fire base is going some reroll aura thing buffing the most cost effective option. I don't own asscannon razors, so I am basically hosed. I realize this now. But don't act like there a lot of viable options for marines in 8th.

Grav-Cannons hurt vehicles better than Lascannons, murder elites like crazy, and outclass a Heavy Bolter against GEQs, with a range that matches the TLAC on the Razors. Something to think about.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Are you for real with this? That list is 100% dependent on Guilliman. Only Ultramarines can run an army anything like this. Are you suggesting that Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and any other successor chapter can get the same mileage out of tactical marines as Ultramarines can, with Guilliman?

Quit being disingenuous for 5 seconds and really think about it.

Any chapter using Codex Space Marines can get a Chapter Master and Lieutenant for fewer than 160 points. For the cost of Guilliman, you can get Chapter Master, Lieutennant, and two more Razorbacks. Doing that, you even knock off the requirement of buying further HQs to get your Battalion, if that's what you're going for. If you're using the Salamanders Tactics, your Tactical Squads get the Guilliman buff for their Lascannons for free.

So yeah. It's a book with a crapload of options, and thinking that this is the only viable build would be really, really unimaginative.

I think it's a template for one of the few viable builds. Weapons other than lascannons for tacs are either a) too short in range b) don't kill big stuff hard enough. The fire base is going some reroll aura thing buffing the most cost effective option. I don't own asscannon razors, so I am basically hosed. I realize this now. But don't act like there a lot of viable options for marines in 8th.

Grav-Cannons hurt vehicles better than Lascannons, murder elites like crazy, and outclass a Heavy Bolter against GEQs, with a range that matches the TLAC on the Razors. Something to think about.

But their range sucks. They can't reach the IG units that you need to kill. You'll never kill enough geqs to matter with marines, so that fact, while interesting, is largely moot.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Grav-Cannons hurt vehicles better than Lascannons, murder elites like crazy, and outclass a Heavy Bolter against GEQs, with a range that matches the TLAC on the Razors. Something to think about.

24" is my preferred murderzone as guard. You'd have to catch me on a flank, and I'm pretty good about that. For other armies it might work okay.

I'm digging the winner's list with a subbed in CM + Lieutenant the more I think about it. Probably throw jump packs on both of them to keep them maneuverable. That gives you, like, another 190 to play with. Could shoehorn a predator in there, but that would screw up target priority. I guess another razorback and maybe spend some points on the two HQs then. The guard player in me thinks that'd be a mean generic marine compatible list. Those razorbacks are removing 38.5 GEQ/turn on average, and then you have the heavy firepower to degrade 2-3 vehicle profiles in a turn, before you take into account rerolls even.

I wish GK had lieutenants.

 daedalus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Grav-Cannons hurt vehicles better than Lascannons, murder elites like crazy, and outclass a Heavy Bolter against GEQs, with a range that matches the TLAC on the Razors. Something to think about.

24" is my preferred murderzone as guard. You'd have to catch me on a flank, and I'm pretty good about that. For other armies it might work okay.

I'm digging the winner's list with a subbed in CM + Lieutenant the more I think about it. Probably throw jump packs on both of them to keep them maneuverable. That gives you, like, another 190 to play with. Could shoehorn a predator in there, but that would screw up target priority. I guess another razorback and maybe spend some points on the two HQs then. The guard player in me thinks that'd be a mean generic marine compatible list. Those razorbacks are removing 38.5 GEQ/turn on average, and then you have the heavy firepower to degrade 2-3 vehicle profiles in a turn, before you take into account rerolls even.

I wish GK had lieutenants.

The grav cannons would be good against other meq lists for sure. Esp GK.

Martel732 wrote:

The grav cannons would be good against other meq lists for sure. Esp GK.

I won't argue that, but typically the thing I hear everyone worrying about is Guard. If you want to have a chance against an index-era IG netlist, you're going to have to plan to degrade those profiles your first turn. Nice thing about the lascannon setup is that you can do that from across the table. When they hit you in response, you soak damage with your ablative wounds, and then you keep firing at the same effective firepower you started with, while the razorbacks roll up and worry about the close range stuff. Only thing you really gotta worry about then is scions.

Anyone remember what was in that 120 conscript tournament netlist from a month or two ago?

Again, though, i don't have the razors. Maybe baal pred gets a price drop?

I probably don't either. Might have enough chassis between the SM and GK, but I'd have to kajigger some more turrets for sure, though I guess I do have all those unused vortimer pattern razorback tops...

 daedalus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Grav-Cannons hurt vehicles better than Lascannons, murder elites like crazy, and outclass a Heavy Bolter against GEQs, with a range that matches the TLAC on the Razors. Something to think about.

24" is my preferred murderzone as guard. You'd have to catch me on a flank, and I'm pretty good about that. For other armies it might work okay.

I feel ya. Personally, I use a mix. I've also been trying out Heavy Plasmas, which have functioned better than I was prepared for, honestly. In the end I think those three weapons are pretty well balanced. As our local Guard players ratchet it up a bit I suspect I'll wind up with more Lascannons again, but we'll see.

Martel732 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Grav-Cannons hurt vehicles better than Lascannons, murder elites like crazy, and outclass a Heavy Bolter against GEQs, with a range that matches the TLAC on the Razors. Something to think about.

24" is my preferred murderzone as guard. You'd have to catch me on a flank, and I'm pretty good about that. For other armies it might work okay.

I'm digging the winner's list with a subbed in CM + Lieutenant the more I think about it. Probably throw jump packs on both of them to keep them maneuverable. That gives you, like, another 190 to play with. Could shoehorn a predator in there, but that would screw up target priority. I guess another razorback and maybe spend some points on the two HQs then. The guard player in me thinks that'd be a mean generic marine compatible list. Those razorbacks are removing 38.5 GEQ/turn on average, and then you have the heavy firepower to degrade 2-3 vehicle profiles in a turn, before you take into account rerolls even.

I wish GK had lieutenants.

The grav cannons would be good against other meq lists for sure. Esp GK.

If you can kill MEQ you can kill GK, you will just be even more points efficient since the minimal troop unit is 21PPM.

If there was a realistic way for assault based armies to get into melee and stay there, both GK and BA would be solid. The problem is that if you make it easier for these two, you'll inadvertently make it easier for Harlequins, Genestealers, and other armies that are fundamentally more threatening in melee, and already have an easier time getting there.

Seriously though, if this edition didn't feature incredibly cheap screen units, it'd be a fairly balanced product, even if TAC marines are crap outside of Guilliman lists.

Hillariously, if Boltguns and other small arms were more common, Harlies and Genestealers would be worse off and GK/BA/ASM would be better off.

Does noone find that funny?