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I made another guard list because i didnt like the other ones i made:

HQ

Command squad with creed, master of the fleet, regimental standard and krak grenades- 190

TROOPS

Platoon 1:
Platoon command squad- 30
3 infantry squads with autocannons and grenade launchers- 195
Heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons- 105

Platoon 2:
Platoon command squad- 30
3 infantry squads with autocannons and grenade launchers- 195
Heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons- 105

FAST ATTACK

Vendetta gunship- 130
Vendetta gunship- 130

HEAVY SUPPORT

Leman russ with heavy bolter sponsors, lascannon and heavy stubber- 195
Leman russ with heavy bolter sponsors, lascannon and heavy stubber- 195

TOTAL: 1500

Any good?

rogersss wrote:I made another guard list because i didnt like the other ones i made:

HQ

Command squad with creed, master of the fleet, regimental standard and krak grenades- 190

drop all the upgrades and get an astropath and 4Xmelta or plasma and a chimera

TROOPS

Platoon 1:
Platoon command squad- 30
3 infantry squads with autocannons and grenade launchers- 195
Heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons- 105

Platoon 2:
Platoon command squad- 30
3 infantry squads with autocannons and grenade launchers- 195
Heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons- 105

This just gives your enemy easy killpoints. Use blobs with commisars. or get vet with mela/plasma in chimeras.

FAST ATTACK

Vendetta gunship- 130
Vendetta gunship- 130

Good. but get 2 vet squads with melta for a loltastic alphastrike.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Leman russ with heavy bolter sponsors, lascannon and heavy stubber- 195
Leman russ with heavy bolter sponsors, lascannon and heavy stubber- 195

Drop all upgrades. keep these things cheap.

TOTAL: 1500

Any good?

I dont really like having melta/plasma squads in a chimera i prefer having a big gunline with lots of infantry (which is why i took creed) backed up with heavy weapons and tanks and the vedettas are for anti tank and for taking objectives.

rogersss wrote:I dont really like having melta/plasma squads in a chimera i prefer having a big gunline with lots of infantry (which is why i took creed) backed up with heavy weapons and tanks and the vedettas are for anti tank and for taking objectives.

If you're not outflanking anything that can't normally outflank, Creed is a waste of points. Buy two CCS instead. Safer, more range (since they can spread out farther), and all you lose is an order useless for your list anyway.

I agree, drop the upgrades for the tanks. Also consider adding artillery and drop the Hvy Weapons with Lascannons for another Vendetta.

without a doubt, use commissars with blob squads. keeps them around for a while.

infantry squads without weapons S8 or higher, or AP3 or lower = waste of points.

infantry squads without some source of stubborn and morale boost = dudes who run off the table first chance they get.

mixing heavy bolters and lascannons on the same vehicle = fail.

The infantry needs to be cleaned up and expanded, perhaps with points taken by lightening the load from the bottom of your list. That and completely throw away your CCS and start over, but under no circumstances allow it to drift above 130 points (unless you make some specific change in the rest of your list that warrants going higher).

Tune it up, and you'll do fine.

Ailaros, you really think so? You don't think a few well-placed lasgun volleys can help out in the right situations?

I've have some good things happen with lasguns tuned into the right spot.

I pretty much agree about the CCS. You could put a heavy weapon in the squad if you don't want to go mobile. Plasma guns are still okay for the gunline.

I would recommend switching the lascannons into the Infantry squads and putting the autocannons into the HWS. The infantry squads are more durable and have better leadership. Plasma guns are worth considering here as well.

The upgrades on the LRBT should go, maybe the lascannon can stay.

You will have some problems with objective missions. I suppose your PCS's could ride in the Vendettas if they can show their faces for the shame of having no weapon upgrades.

I started recently with a gunline list and I have since converted one platoon into an AL'Rahem power blob. I think it's fantastic. You might like it too.

TheRedArmy wrote:You don't think a few well-placed lasgun volleys can help out in the right situations?

Yes, it can help out IN THE RIGHT SITUATIONS. Those situations come up like 5% of the time, at most. Why spend 120 points for something which is worthwhile 5% of the time when you can spend 180 pts. and have them worth taking like 100% of the time?

Plus, arming your troops properly does not stop them from shooting lasguns in those rare times when a massed lasgun volley is what's called for.

pzbw7z wrote:I started recently with a gunline list and I have since converted one platoon into an AL'Rahem power blob. I think it's fantastic. You might like it too.

and this.

The real problem with heavy weapons in troops choices is that it gets you to want to sit still with them. Sitting still and doing damage is what heavy support choices are for - they do this role much better for fewer points.

Ailaros wrote:

TheRedArmy wrote:You don't think a few well-placed lasgun volleys can help out in the right situations?

Yes, it can help out IN THE RIGHT SITUATIONS. Those situations come up like 5% of the time, at most. Why spend 120 points for something which is worthwhile 5% of the time when you can spend 180 pts. and have them worth taking like 100% of the time?

Plus, arming your troops properly does not stop them from shooting lasguns in those rare times when a massed lasgun volley is what's called for.

pzbw7z wrote:I started recently with a gunline list and I have since converted one platoon into an AL'Rahem power blob. I think it's fantastic. You might like it too.

and this.

The real problem with heavy weapons in troops choices is that it gets you to want to sit still with them. Sitting still and doing damage is what heavy support choices are for - they do this role much better for fewer points.

Fair enough. I suppose you can make it as you want. If you're gonna sit infantry, heavy weapons them. If you're gonna power blob (like you, I note - been reading your battle reports!), then heavy weapons are a waste. As always, the best thing in the codex is the thing that makes your army better than everything else for the same points cost.

...I think.

Thanks for the comments

I want to keep the list fairly similar to the one i got now but what would you reccomend changing to make the list better while still having the same type of army.

commissars and real guns for your troops choices.

Real guns?

Yeah, ones that are S8 or better, or those that ignore armor saves.

Without S8+, you're not doing much to vehicles or MCs and without at LEAST Ap3, you're not doing much to heavy infantry or MCs. The only thing you have is anti-light-infantry, which 30 lasguns FRFing can handle just fine without special weapons.

rogersss wrote:Command squad with creed, master of the fleet, regimental standard and krak grenades- 190

Regimental Standard is amazing for what it does. With blobs you can keep one model close to the flag no problem. With a good flag, and a good commander like Creed I disagree with the others: I don't think you need to have commissar everywhere for your infantry to stick in the flight. Also with large blobs, it takes a decent number of wounds to actually cause a test. Creed is sorta expensive however, so just be careful. I think he's fantastic, but basically you lose a lot of points if someone decides he should die. I recommend a Chimera for him. Officer of the Fleet is great, really ruins those lists with outflankers and deep strikers etc. Krak grenades are a good in a pinch, in case someone decides to hit you with a walker in melee, it is a nice way to answer.

rogersss wrote:TROOPS

Platoon 1:
Platoon command squad- 30
3 infantry squads with autocannons and grenade launchers- 195
Heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons- 105

Platoon 2:
Platoon command squad- 30
3 infantry squads with autocannons and grenade launchers- 195
Heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons- 105

I like. I usually prefer 20man squads, 30man are usually sorta unruly to maneuver. Heavy weapons imply you won't be moving your squads, be careful. Not moving squads is sometimes ok, when you use heavy weapons... but usually the lack of mobility will be the end of your list. Most armies out there are melee, and even ones that aren't probably will do better than your IG. So avoiding melee is important. On the other hand, slap some power swords in your squads and laugh as your opponents have to kill 27 guardsmen before they can get to the sergeants who are denying the space marines their armor saves. Also consider adding bombs so the blobs can also melee vehicles. With a few relatively cheap melee upgrades your guard go from casualties to a nasty melee surprise. Also with 30man squads you can fight in melee much like orks do (not as well, but whatever), with lots of "boyz" soaking wounds and a "nob" (in this case 3 sergeants) doing all the major damage.

I disagree that the only way to make infantry useful is with expensive weapons. Autocannons and grenade launchers are fine in my book. Cheap and effective, you can save the biggest guns for your tanks or vets. Infantry, in my opinion, is best for being cheap and expendable. Feel free to use these huge squads to bubble wrap your tanks, or to create cover from open ground. (Take half your squad and put it in cover, take the other half and make a line in front of your other troops, viola! you have cover for your whole army.)

rogersss wrote:FAST ATTACK

Vendetta gunship- 130
Vendetta gunship- 130

My favorite.

rogersss wrote:HEAVY SUPPORT

Leman russ with heavy bolter sponsors, lascannon and heavy stubber- 195
Leman russ with heavy bolter sponsors, lascannon and heavy stubber- 195

Point sinks. Pick a job, either tank/heavy infantry hunters take the lascannon and drop the bolters and stubber, or go horde mulcher drop the lascannon and take the bolters and stubbers. You can't do both at the same time, so save the points.

Should i take away the lascannons on the russes and krak grenades and have voxs on infantry squads or do somthing else with the points?

Orders are not a game changer. The game is not going to change direction simply from a failed order roll. Sure, sometimes it is annoying, but most orders only modify something infantry is able to do relatively effectively anyway. Voxs in every squad ends up getting very expensive, very fast and for little benefit.

As for the lascannon on LRBT, it is one of my favorite combinations. The S9 AP2 mixes well with the S8 AP3, for that one more wound on that squad of SM, or for that one extra chance to split that enemy armor.

Krak grenades are good against lists you expect to have a lot of light armor, so like ork lists. But I generally only take them if I have points that I don't know where else to spend it.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Creed I disagree with the others: I don't think you need to have commissar everywhere for your infantry to stick in the flight. Also with large blobs, it takes a decent number of wounds to actually cause a test.

Against shooting, assuming you have cover, yeah, squads with just a flag will do just fine most of the time. But what happens when your 30-dude power blob is charged by a sentinel and loses combat by 3. How much hope do you have that you will be able to roll a 5 or lower, even on two tries? I ask, because if you don't, you just lost a 250 point unit to a 40 point vehicle.

Then consider REAL close combat units out there. I've lost combat by as much as 17 before in a single round. How well do you really think a flag is going to do without stubborn?

Considering that there are only two blobs in this entire list, the loss of one due to getting caught in a sweeping advance is going to be horrific.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Autocannons and grenade launchers are fine in my book. Cheap and effective, you can save the biggest guns for your tanks or vets.

Effective against what?

Ailaros wrote:Against shooting, assuming you have cover, yeah, squads with just a flag will do just fine most of the time. But what happens when your 30-dude power blob is charged by a sentinel and loses combat by 3. How much hope do you have that you will be able to roll a 5 or lower, even on two tries? I ask, because if you don't, you just lost a 250 point unit to a 40 point vehicle.

You cant lose combat to a sentinal by 3 and you would be unlucky to lose by more than 1.

Ailaros wrote:Then consider REAL close combat units out there. I've lost combat by as much as 17 before in a single round. How well do you really think a flag is going to do without stubborn?

Considering that there are only two blobs in this entire list, the loss of one due to getting caught in a sweeping advance is going to be horrific.

If you lost combat by 17 you've lost more than 2/3 of the squad and they would have probaly lost more by shooting aswell so you've only got about 5 left, so why would you want them there as there only going to be useless and stop the rest of you're army shooting at them.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Autocannons and grenade launchers are fine in my book. Cheap and effective, you can save the biggest guns for your tanks or vets.

Ailaros wrote:Effective against what?

If you look at one autocannon or one grenade luancher firing then yea there not great but if you have 6 autocannons and grenade luanchers firing every turn then they can easily get rid of most infantry and transports.

rogersss wrote:If you lost combat by 17 you've lost more than 2/3 of the squad and they would have probaly lost more by shooting aswell so you've only got about 5 left, so why would you want them there as there only going to be useless and stop the rest of you're army shooting at them.

Because then they don't also get the charge again the NEXT turn. Plus, you can always kill off a commissar if you want them to run, but without a commissar, you have no chance of them staying.

Losing half your infantry to just a single unit in a single turn is unacceptable. If your opponent brought two assault marine squads, most of your army would be thrown off the table about as fast as you can blink.

rogersss wrote: If you look at one autocannon or one grenade luancher firing then yea there not great but if you have 6 autocannons and grenade luanchers firing every turn then they can easily get rid of most infantry and transports.

Define "easily". As far as I see it, 6 GLAC squads kill about 2 tac marines a turn. How many turns do you think you'll get to shoot at them before they instantly sweep you off the board in close combat? Same for hordes, you may be killing more models, but will be killing even fewer points worth than marines. I'd also like to see how grenade launchers "easily" blow up chimeras...

Ailaros wrote:

rogersss wrote: If you look at one autocannon or one grenade luancher firing then yea there not great but if you have 6 autocannons and grenade luanchers firing every turn then they can easily get rid of most infantry and transports.

Define "easily". As far as I see it, 6 GLAC squads kill about 2 tac marines a turn. How many turns do you think you'll get to shoot at them before they instantly sweep you off the board in close combat? Same for hordes, you may be killing more models, but will be killing even fewer points worth than marines. I'd also like to see how grenade launchers "easily" blow up chimeras...

You are aware that there are other armies out there than Space Marines, right? Even if there wasn't, autocannon are fantastic at taking down light armor up to Av12 i.e. Rhinos and Dreadnoughts, especially if you are fortunate enough to combine them with orders, even more so if you consider how cheap they are. Then considering that against most other armies, Sv3+ and Sv2+ are rare or non-existant most people can see why the autocannon is the staple of many IG armies. Sure the autocannon can't do everything, but it isn't supposed to, it is specialized to handle light armor and light to medium infantry, and it does this cheaply and efficiently. If you want to throw away points buying only the most expensive weapons available, that's your prerogative, but in my experience what you are saying about autocannons makes no sense and has never happened to me in a game.

As a side note, IG infantry don't die instantly when assaulted if you play your army right. I have no issues drowning SM assaults with effective infantry charges.

Unless your sitting still you can only fire one of the heavy bolter/las cannon. Also, with out machine spirit , you'll end up shooting a heavy bolter at tanks or las cannon at infantry (which is prob more likely scince you have a battle cannon.

And if you loose the lascannon keep stuber, if you loose bolter then loose stuber other than that i like the list.



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