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This came up in a game of mine tonight.

A Sternguard squad elevated about 1 inch with 2 LC's was shooting at a Medusa in some partial cover(a wall greater than it's own height) with 2 gaurdsmen in front of it at ground level.

LC 1 could clearly see over 50% of the front facing even with 2 gaurdsmen blocking some line of sight.
LC 2 was more in the 50% range. (but I would argue that I could see the whole top of the tank as well.)

The rulebook states you use the majority of your firing models LOS to determine if there is cover and if you are unsure do a -1 cover save.

Can some please clarify a resolution to this problem???
Are two 5+ cover saves taken? because the majority of 2 is 2?

On another note there was another marine in the squad with a combie plasma rifle but was out of range but in even better LOS to the Medusa than LC1. Does that count for determining cover?
I would gladly waste a combie shot to deny cover save if so.

Thank you.

technically all models fire, ones out of range auto miss. Based on that it all depends on how much of the entire squad could see you

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:technically all models fire, ones out of range auto miss. Based on that it all depends on how much of the entire squad could see you

Actually, only the models you choose to fire fire (pg. 16, "Which Models Can Fire?"). And you check majority based on the models actually firing. So in this case yes, you could fire the combi-plasma and then he would count for determining cover saves if he was in range (pg. 22, right hand column, 4th paragraph). If he was in range you could also just fire the bolter, and he'd still count for determining cover saves even if he can't actually do anything. But that is likely to be considered unsportsmanlike.

wow I really need to stop handicapping myself and learn to properly read ...
I must have somehow mixed up closecombat with shooting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
somehow lasguns got good, considering I don't have to fire them ...

Chrysis is correct.

If there were just the two firing models, and from one of their perspective, 50% of the targeted facing was covered, the cover save would apply. The facing has to be over 50% visible from the MAJORITY of firing models to disallow the save.

Yeah, you don't have a choice about stabbing dudes, but you do about shooting them. Mostly I think it's for things like plasma guns that you know are out of range (still have to check Gets Hot! for them if you fire them, even if you automatically miss.)

Also remember if you have guys standing in separate facing you need to do their cover calculations separately.

Does the top (roof) of the tank come into play in regards to this subject - if you can see (usually from an elevated position?)

As far as I can tell there is nothing precluding the roof from counting as part of the hull and thus part of the facing.

Chrysis wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:technically all models fire, ones out of range auto miss. Based on that it all depends on how much of the entire squad could see you

Actually, only the models you choose to fire fire (pg. 16, "Which Models Can Fire?"). And you check majority based on the models actually firing. So in this case yes, you could fire the combi-plasma and then he would count for determining cover saves if he was in range (pg. 22, right hand column, 4th paragraph). If he was in range you could also just fire the bolter, and he'd still count for determining cover saves even if he can't actually do anything. But that is likely to be considered unsportsmanlike.

Just found a mistake I made. The model has to be able to hurt the vehicle to count for cover saves (pg. 62, first bullet point, 3rd set of brackets). So if you fired the plasma part of the combi-plasma it would count, but if you fired the bolter it wouldn't assuming AV11+.

Based on the diagram on p60, I'd say so. The whole vehicle is cut into four wedges, and any part falling into that wedge is part of that armor facing.

Mannahnin wrote:Based on the diagram on p60, I'd say so. The whole vehicle is cut into four wedges, and any part falling into that wedge is part of that armor facing.

Of course, that then opens the can of worms that if you aren't elevated and can't see the top, is that facing obscured? At least on a rhino the top part of that front wedge is quite a significant area, so if you aren't tall enough to see the top is that area obscured reducing what you need for cover?

Yes, this is what happens when you make a rule that can't be accurately measured without some sort of high tech laser device. Clearly also, I show no sympathy for someone who can't make it dang obvious that their vehicle is in cover from 2 lazcannons? Please just hide your tank properly.

But once again, I'll bring up people shooting a the vanes on raiders, that ain't hull mate :( But when everyone shoots it =_=

Chrysis wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Based on the diagram on p60, I'd say so. The whole vehicle is cut into four wedges, and any part falling into that wedge is part of that armor facing.

Of course, that then opens the can of worms that if you aren't elevated and can't see the top, is that facing obscured? At least on a rhino the top part of that front wedge is quite a significant area, so if you aren't tall enough to see the top is that area obscured reducing what you need for cover?

If you are low down and can't see the roof of the vehicle, and your view of the front is obscured, then your view is obscured.

If you have enough elevation, you may be able to see over half the facing of the vehicle, including the slice of hits roof which counts as the front.

If the situation is difficult to make out for certain, give the vehicle a 5+ cover save.



Not a very good picture but it gives the idea.

Mannahnin wrote:Based on the diagram on p60, I'd say so. The whole vehicle is cut into four wedges, and any part falling into that wedge is part of that armor facing.

You don't need to be able to see 50% of the facing you are in - you need to be able to see 50% of the vehicle.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Based on the diagram on p60, I'd say so. The whole vehicle is cut into four wedges, and any part falling into that wedge is part of that armor facing.

You don't need to be able to see 50% of the facing you are in - you need to be able to see 50% of the vehicle.

"At least 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is...."
First bulllet point page 62.

I stand corrected!