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Hello everyone! I know that there's some pretty savvy CSM players out there on Dakka, so I thought I'd run this by you guys. I'm starting a Chaos army for Adepticon, and I was thinking I'd expand it out to 2500 points over the next year or so, and I'd like it to have a Black Legion theme and contain a squad from every traitor Legion. Tell me what you think!

HQ:
Daemon Prince: MoT, Warptime, Wings
Chaos Sorcerer: Fzorgle

Troops:
6 Noise Marines(EC): sonic blasters, Rhino
8 Khorne Berserkers(WE): Skull Champion with Power Fist, Rhino
7 Plague Marines(DG): 2 Meltas, Rhino
9 Thousand Sons(TS): Sorcerer has Doombolt, Melta Bombs
10 CSM(WB): 2 Meltas, IoCG, Rhino
10 CSM(WB): 2 Meltas, IoCG, Rhino

Elites:
7 Chaos Terminators(BL): 4 combi-Meltas
5 Chosen(AL): 4 Melta guns, Rhino
5 Chosen(NL): 4 Melta guns, Rhino

Heavy Support:

9 Havocs(IW): 4 Missile Launchers, IoCG

So I think that's all the Legions, let me know if the italicized abbreviations aren't clear. The main goal here is Target saturation, with the Havocs just laying down a barrage of missiles every turn and being hard to shift with their re-rollable morale checks. I have tons of units to hold objectives, and the outflanking chosen will be able to affect the enemy's deployment toward the center and if they don't outflank and wreck some tanks.

Long range shooting might be an issue, but I feel like the terminators and chosen mitigate that a bit. What do you say, dakka?

Oblids are better than Havocs Imo.

Other than that it looks decent.

A 2nd Demon Prince would also be better than the socerer imo, especially if you play against eldar with stones or Marines with a psychic hood.

Well I would say that's an overall flavorful and...WAIT...this is Black Legion and there is no Abbadon? You have 7 Terminators...but no Abbadon!

The horror! Okay, I'm being a little over the top but I would think at this point level you could at least consider the biggest monster in close combat in 40K...

The only thing that isn't fluffy is the Iron Warrior Havocs...I would figure Lascannons would be more of their cup of tea...I would actually replace them with Lascannon/Autocannon Predators (I think they're about the same amount of points...not sure).

It'd give more armor and some mobile firepower...

Just a thought; overall though, I likes.

Your troops section is a bit all-over-the-place (when reading it, I get the "12 Days of Christmas" tune playng in my head: "niiiiiiiine thousand soooooons!") and I think you can accomplish more with taking nilla CSM than cult choices, especially the very weak cult-number of Noise Marines. I agree that another DP is better than the Sorceror. I think the Havocs could use a re-think but I'll let wiser heads than mine (Sanctjud) debate it.

Smitty0305 wrote:Oblids are better than Havocs Imo.

While you're probably right, I'm pretty sure Obliterators aren't associated with any one Legion and I'm trying to keep this fluffy.

Smitty0305 wrote:A 2nd Demon Prince would also be better than the socerer imo, especially if you play against eldar with stones or Marines with a psychic hood.

Well, Daemon Princes tend to need a psychic power to reach their maximum effectiveness too don't they?

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Well I would say that's an overall flavorful and...WAIT...this is Black Legion and there is no Abbadon? You have 7 Terminators...but no Abbadon!

I know, but he's so expensive... What do you suggest I take out?

Unholy_Martyr wrote:The only thing that isn't fluffy is the Iron Warrior Havocs...I would figure Lascannons would be more of their cup of tea...I would actually replace them with Lascannon/Autocannon Predators (I think they're about the same amount of points...not sure).

I could paint them as Iron Warriors tanks... I will ruminate on this. It's a good idea.

Manchu wrote:Your troops section is a bit all-over-the-place (when reading it, I get the "12 Days of Christmas" tune playng in my head: "niiiiiiiine thousand soooooons!")

While I get what you're saying, I wanted a squad from every Legion, and to be fluffy I'm going back to the good old days when all of the cult troops were encouraged to be in their Patron God's sacred number.

As to Daemon Prince vs Sorceror, I've played enough games to weigh the benefits of a daemon prince and Sorcerer and I like the idea of being able to join units and not get pwnt by Long Fangs and Loots on turn one. Or at least be rather less likely to do so.

Monster Rain wrote:While you're probably right, I'm pretty sure Obliterators aren't associated with any one Legion and I'm trying to keep this fluff.

What is the fluff theme you're building to? If it's "Chaos Warband of M41/42" then all the choices are perfectly fluffy. Remember, C:CSM is not C:HH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:I wanted a squad from every Legion, and to be fluffy I'm going back to the good old days when all of the cult troops were encouraged to be in their Patron God's sacred number.

Unfortunately, their cult number is currently just a liability for Noise Marines. I've thought about this for a long time and the real rub is that they're way, way too expensive to run much more than six (and certainly not twelve!) while giving everyone in the squad a noisey gun. They are really a lost unit in the current dex, a standout example for what I hope a fifth edition Chaos book will sort out at a high level.

Monster Rain wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Oblids are better than Havocs Imo.

While you're probably right, I'm pretty sure Obliterators aren't associated with any one Legion

IW?

Well if you drop the Prince, Havoks and sorcerer you gain enough points for Abaddon and 2 Autocannon/Lascannon Predators right on the nose.

With that in mind, you could also drop a Terminator and some other gear and give the Terminators mark of Tzeentch to make them a pain in the backside of anyone.

Manchu wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:While you're probably right, I'm pretty sure Obliterators aren't associated with any one Legion and I'm trying to keep this fluff.

What is the fluff theme you're building to? If it's "Chaos Warband of M41/42" then all the choices are perfectly fluffy. Remember, C:CSM is not C:HH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:I wanted a squad from every Legion, and to be fluffy I'm going back to the good old days when all of the cult troops were encouraged to be in their Patron God's sacred number.

Unfortunately, their cult number is currently just a liability for Noise Marines. I've thought about this for a long time and the real rub is that they're way, way too expensive to run much more than six (and certainly not twelve!) while giving everyone in the squad a noisey gun. They are really a lost unit in the current dex, a standout example for what I hope a fifth edition Chaos book will sort out at a high level.

I just wanted to have a unit from every legion, and be in keeping with the more traditional background concepts of each of the legions. 6(EC),7(DG),8(WE),9(TS) marine cult squad choices, sneaky alpha legion and Night Lords, Heavy and entrenched Iron Warriors, numerous, fanatically and suicidally brave(melta rhino rush) Word Bearers and brutal and experienced Black Legion Veterans led by a Sorceror and Daemon Prince that aren't of conflicting alignment regarding their patron god.

I didn't miss any, did I?

Obliterators are Mercs in every right...besides, what Iron Warrior doesn't want to be in a high AV vehicle?

Devastator wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Oblids are better than Havocs Imo.

While you're probably right, I'm pretty sure Obliterators aren't associated with any one Legion

IW?

Yeah, they're friendly with the IW, but they aren't actually part of the legion are they?

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Well if you drop the Prince, Havoks and sorcerer you gain enough points for Abaddon and 2 Autocannon/Lascannon Predators right on the nose.

Hot damn that's a good idea. I can paint the tanks metal and throw some caution stripes on them and it doesn't even mess up my theme.

I do believe I might try that, though I think I'll miss fzorgle.

Monster Rain wrote:

Devastator wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Oblids are better than Havocs Imo.

While you're probably right, I'm pretty sure Obliterators aren't associated with any one Legion

IW?

Yeah, they're friendly with the IW, but they aren't actually part of the legion are they?
.

most of them come from IW
and IW have large about of them in their ranks

but its your list so yeah....

A little more killy, less static version of the list. Also involves less models to paint so that's cool too.

HQ:
Abbaddon the Despoiler

Troops:
6 Noise Marines(EC): sonic blasters, Rhino
8 Khorne Berserkers(WE): Skull Champion with Power Fist, Rhino
7 Plague Marines(DG): 2 Meltas, Rhino
9 Thousand Sons(TS): Sorcerer has Doombolt
10 CSM(WB): 2 Meltas, IoCG, Rhino
10 CSM(WB): 2 Meltas, IoCG, Rhino

Elites:
6 Chaos Terminators(BL): 4 combi-Meltas, IoT
5 Chosen(AL): 5 Melta guns, Rhino
5 Chosen(NL): 1 flamer, 4 Melta guns, Rhino

Heavy Support:

Predator with Autocannon/Lascannons
Predator with Autocannon/Lascannons

Monster Rain wrote:I didn't miss any, did I?

Depends on what you mean. If you mean "cult troop choice," then no. If you meant "Legion" then where are the Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion? Among the Termies/Chosen/Nillas? I assume Black Legion/Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves and Iron Warriors are alredy accounted for among those choices.

Manchu wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I didn't miss any, did I?

Depends on what you mean. If you mean "cult troop choice," then no. If you meant "Legion" then where are the Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion? Among the Termies/Chosen/Nillas? I assume Black Legion/Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves and Iron Warriors are alredy accounted for among those choices.

Two troop choices will be Word Bearers and the Night Lords and Alpha Legion will be Chosen. Abby and the Terminators will be representing the Black Legion; much respect.

Well, it will be fun (!) to paint at least.

Yeah, it will be a labor of love over the next year or so.

Eight rhinos... /sigh

If I was thinking of buying this much stuff, I'd beg Sanctjud and Nurglitch for advice first.

Well, the Daemon Prince, 20 of the Word Bearers, 7 Plague Marines and 3 of the Rhinos I'm buying anyway.

I think I like the revised version of the list better. Stuff like the Terminators with no upgrades was driving me nuts.

Re: The terminators, if you drop one of them, you can afford a powerfist in the squad and enough points for combi-meltas on the Chosen Rhinos. The latter allows them to engage another enemy vehicle the turn they come on.

The configuration I like better for Noise Marines is without the sonic blasters, but adding a champ with power weapon and Doom Siren. This makes them a respectable I5 assault unit, and gives them that nasty AP3 heavy flamer.

Possible alternative to the Preds is a unit of havocs plus a unit of Lesser Daemons. That would give you a 7th scoring unit and let you use them to hold a home objective if they show up on turn 2.

The cost of the T-sons makes me kind of nauseous. I think this list could be surprisingly strong if you weren't married to the sacred numbers.

Mannahnin wrote:The configuration I like better for Noise Marines is without the sonic blasters, but adding a champ with power weapon and Doom Siren. This makes them a respectable I5 assault unit, and gives them that nasty AP3 heavy flamer.

Running NM as sold?! ::monocle spalshes into champagne flute:: How quaint.

What can I say? I5 is cool. AP3 is cool. And flamer templates are cool. Three great tastes that taste great together. I had an all-Slaanesh CSM army back in 3rd ed, and I used multiple squads like this. They still rock.

Mannahnin wrote:Possible alternative to the Preds is a unit of havocs plus a unit of Lesser Daemons. That would give you a 7th scoring unit and let you use them to hold a home objective if they show up on turn 2.

Now where have I seen that before?

Mannahnin wrote:The cost of the T-sons makes me kind of nauseous. I think this list could be surprisingly strong if you weren't married to the sacred numbers.

I know, I know. Why can't Tzeentch's sacred number be 5?

Manchu wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The configuration I like better for Noise Marines is without the sonic blasters, but adding a champ with power weapon and Doom Siren. This makes them a respectable I5 assault unit, and gives them that nasty AP3 heavy flamer.

Running NM as sold?! ::monocle spalshes into champagne flute:: How quaint.

That's not a bad idea. I do love my Librarian's AP3 Heavy Flamer.

Monster Rain wrote:
Elites:
6 Chaos Terminators(BL): 4 combi-Meltas, IoT
5 Chosen(AL): 5 Melta guns, Rhino
5 Chosen(NL): 1 flamer, 4 Melta guns, Rhino

Consider one of the Chosen squads with 5 flamers? That's how I run mine, it can be very effective when it comes to burning stuff out of cover. Maybe not as much without the fzorgle, but under the right circumstances those plates force alot of save throws.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why not run an Autocannon in the termie squad? If your going for fluff then Termicide doesn't really fit.

Lint wrote:Also, why not run an Autocannon in the termie squad? If your going for fluff then Termicide doesn't really fit.

They don't plan on dying.

It's just an unfortunate side effect of being the bravest(craziest?) soldiers in the army.

Dress them up in the World Eater upgrades from FW.