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Hi there, simple enough question - I am taking a 3-man Crisis team with an attatched HQ suit. For wound allocation purposes I want to make each team member different. One of the members is getting a different weapon loadout so obviously this constitutes 'different in gaming terms' (Rulebook page 26), BUT for the other different member, I want to give him the 'Team Leader' upgrade (the only possible remaining upgrade to differentiate him, which unlocks extra wargear options, which I'm not sure I want). So the question is - does this upgrade qualify him as 'different in gaming terms'? It confers no bonus to any stats, rolls etc, it ONLY unlocks the armoury for that model.

My personal feeling is pretty divided - it is a costed upgrade, but as if you choose no extra wargear it doesnt make a practical difference in the game - there is no Team Leader profile on the unit entry. Or would just being titled a 'Team Leader' be enough to make it a 'different model?'

Thanks,

Guy

Yes the team leader upgrade makes it a differently equipped model.

It is not different "in game terms", as it does not have different stats or wargear.

The name of the model or unit is a gaming term. The cost of the individual model is a gaming term. I don't see how the rules restrict 'gaming terms' to profiles and wargear.

Because the rule on page 25 states so?

Reread "by this we mean", note the list is exhaustive.

I missed that... but regardless, on Page 8 at the end of the 'Characteristics' section "the model's points value" is defined as being a part of the profile. Hence they have a different profile of characteristics.

I'd say costing a different amount of points is a difference in game terms. Or are you stating that points costs have no game effect?

Once you're in the game they have no effect, but they are a part of the model's profile. It's clearly distinct from the other models in the unit - on the army list - and you should make sure that your opponent is aware of this as well.

guyrevell wrote:
My personal feeling is pretty divided - it is a costed upgrade, but as if you choose no extra wargear it doesnt make a practical difference in the game - there is no Team Leader profile on the unit entry. Or would just being titled a 'Team Leader' be enough to make it a 'different model?'

It works just like an Assault Marine sargeant with no upgrades, while he has identical wargear to the other assault marines, he still counts as his own pool. The team leader functions the same way.

Once you're in the game they have no effect, but they are a part of the model's profile. It's clearly distinct from the other models in the unit - on the army list - and you should make sure that your opponent is aware of this as well.

They do however still have a game effect as they define what you have in your army. They still as you've stated have a different profile.

DAR - incorrect reasoning, correct result.

An assault marine Sarge is a different pool because he is different; he has Ld9 to the normal Ld8

Avoiding the argument between nos1001 and the others,

guyrevell wrote:, I want to give him the 'Team Leader' upgrade (the only possible remaining upgrade to differentiate him, which unlocks extra wargear options, which I'm not sure I want).

... just grant him a hwDC; this will make him different without any points cost.

So,
Shas'O
FK upgraded to Team Leader & a hwDC
FireKnife
Deathrain

Now you have total Wound Allocation shenanigans.

'Course, I like to spend the piddly amount of points for a BK to save that Suit ... and that'd do it too.

Fling - the words are "in game" effect.

The points cost of a unit has no effect within the game. Outside of the game (list construction) - yes. After the game (VP calculation) - yes. But not IN game.

Just give him a darksun filter for, what, 1 or 2 points? That will take all of the questions out of the equation.

Characteristics are defined in the rulebook (pgs 6-7). Points value is not a characteristic.

So does the team leader have different characteristics, weapons, wargear and special rules? If not, then he does not have his wounds allocated separately from this squad-mates.

If you want to differentiate the squad leader from his squad, I highly suggest taking a bonding knife for 5pts.

What about pg 8? I'd like to hear arguments for why this isn't taken into account.

"Generally you'll find characteristic profiles come along with one other piece of information - the model's points value."

The two 'crew' for the Guardian Heavy Weapon Platform is interesting. The points cost and wargear is identical. "...assume that the gun is carried by the crew member firing it."
I've always treated the crew as distinct without really thinking about it. I guess they aren't (unless they're firing the weapon, which is only in the player turn).

Arctik - that is not defining the profile as including points values, it is stating that a profile "comes along" with the points value.

So you have [profile+points value] not [profile includes points value]

I repeal my point after considering the way Space Marine and various other units are now costed (base cost+additional points per model) as this would get messy fast.

Not that I'm strictly wrong, but ignoring the points values solves that problem for almost everyone... except Tau Team Leaders.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I think I'm gonna conclude that unlocking the armoury and a special name (despite having no individual profile) & paying the 5pts for it counts. Incidentally - taking a drone controller makes a single drone mandatory, and the Bonding Knife is on the attatched 'El for the squad.

Thanks again!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I repeal my point after considering the way Space Marine and various other units are now costed (base cost+additional points per model) as this would get messy fast.

Not that I'm strictly wrong, but ignoring the points values solves that problem for almost everyone... except Tau Team Leaders.

You are strictly wrong. At the bottom of page 7 it says Characteristic Profiles, a section under Characteristics, which goes on to say "Below are the profiles for an Ork Boy and a Space Marine..." and proceeds to lay out a characteristic profile. Points values are not listed. All the applicable items from pages 6 and 7 are.

pratell wrote:

You are strictly wrong. At the bottom of page 7 it says Characteristic Profiles, a section under Characteristics, which goes on to say "Below are the profiles for an Ork Boy and a Space Marine..." and proceeds to lay out a characteristic profile. Points values are not listed. All the applicable items from pages 6 and 7 are.

Thank god we have a "Page 8"...

So along with the profile, there is a point cost listing. Ok.

It would be a better counter point if it said "As part of the profile. . .", it would seem.

Editing to add:
Heck it even says the profile "comes along with one other piece of information". This blatantly shows that it is not the SAME piece of information--the profile.

kirsanth wrote:So along with the profile, there is a point cost listing. Ok.

It would be a better counter point if it said "As part of the profile. . .", it would seem.

Sigh... not this "wording" again..

The exact statement is that the "Characteristic Profiles come along with ONE OTHER piece of information"

The specification of "one other" means "One additional" piece of information, if it is "additional" it would be adding to a list of information that already exists (as opposed to simple "One piece of information") the list in question is the characteristics profile. Along these lines, the statement, if interpreted using common english word/sentence structure/logic, would imply that the points values are part of the characteristic profile, much like how certain characteristics may be modified using "upgrades" (wargear, special rules, etc) if the point cost of a characteristic profile is modified, then the profile is also modified, and as such, a seperate pool for wound allocation. (A tau team leader, having 5 more points in its profile, now no longer holds an identical PROFILE to the rest of the unit).

Reading it anyother way is interpreting for the sake of personal arguement, or ignoring logic, either way, the Points value is part of the Characteristic Profile, and in itself, is a characteristic (to an extent). For if not, VPs would be IMPOSSIBLE to factor (and list building in general would be chaotic and 'sloppy')

~DAR