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I was wondering what everyones thoughts were on Noise Marines vs Berserkers for assault. Now I don't mean as a primary choice, but lets say you already have 1 unit of berserkers and are looking to take a second.

Now 8 Berserkers w/ champ w/ PF and a rhino is 243
8 Noise Marines w/ champ w/ PW & Doom Siren and a rhino is 240 so the cost is roughly the same.

The biggest difference here is the doom siren and noise marines can be charged, but still go first(against other marines), but are inferior on the charge to berserkers, though you can probably get 4ish kills with the doom siren before the charge with its AP 3.

Just looking at both units I would say the berserkers are better, but my main question is if the doom siren is worth it for everyones that tried using it or is another unit of berserkers just clearly better?

I'd go with noise marines, and just use the kill alot before I get charged technique or the soft blow but I'm betting on winning combat on your turn ... lol

the doom siren is one of the best weapons in the csm codex. it is absolutely worth it. it auto hits, it wounds most things on 3s or 2s, no cover, usually no armor save. its hard to argue with, really. that being said noise marine squads are typically more expensive than the zerkers, because they usually have sonic weapons too. to me at least noise weapons are the reason to bring noise marines. in that case they're probably stronger than zerkers when you factor in their shooting too, even though the sonic blasters dont synergize well with the doom siren. then again though the zerkers are cheaper and have higher quality attacks, so its really an interesting question you bring up......

Overall I'd give the edge slightly to the berserkers.

+1A and +1 WS is overall certainly better than +1I, especially since the guy only costs 1pt more, and also comes with Furious Charge. So on the strength of the basic troopers, Zerks definitely edge out Noisies in HtH.

That said, if you want to pay 25pts/model for NMs with Sonic Blasters, you can have a unit that really puts out a LOT of antiinfantry firepower, which gives NMs role flexiblity Berserker's don't possess. For my money, though, this is usually not the best option. As Chaos in general is good at killing infantry in HTH, plus HTH happens twice per game turn, plus if you're locked in combat you're not getting shot. NMs not in combat (getting shot at), die just as fast as regular marines but cost substantially more.

So HTH is usually the better way to go, unless you're up against certain special units, like Genestealers, Eldar, DE without pain tokens, or IG blobs outside of cover, which Lash can help make happen. Lash can also make the 40pt Blastmaster well worth the points, as it can set up some really gorgeous shots to kill a bunch of marines at one go. Still, it's a goodly number of points invested in the combo, and you may want your limited number of lashes doing something else useful.

IMO the comparison becomes a bit more interesting when you bring the Champions into the equation.

The Berserker champion is certainly more killy in HTH. A S9 fist with 4A on the charge at WS5 is pretty doggone fearsome. It also can bust open tanks, which makes the zerks more flexible in terms of targets.

The NM champ can also take a fist, but doing so wastes his I5. If I were running an all-Slaanesh army, I'd certainly still take fists in at least one or two squads, just because you really want that vehicle and monstrous creature-busting ability in your squads. But overall you'll usually see NM champs wield a power weapon, which uses his I5, gets him as many attacks as the berserker champ with a fist, and gives him the ability to remove models from most enemy units before those models get to swing. This adds to the durability of the unit in HTH, because less enemy get to throw attacks.

The other great tool the NM champ can bring is of course the Doom Siren. As AF said, an AP3 S5 flamer is really excellent. It ignores the armor saves of most units in the game, and negates the ever-present cover saves that are just so good and so strong in 5th edition. It also gets to kill models in the shooting phase, before anyone attacks, so again can functionally increase the durability of the NMs against I5+ targets like Genestealers, DE, and Eldar. Of course the usual cautions apply about being careful when you're on the edge of assault range, because you don't want him removing the models in reach as casualties.

Of course, Lash adds value again in this situation, both being able to compensate for this and make sure the enemy unit is in assault range, or even better, moving the enemy so they're BOTH in guaranteed assault range AND are bunched up perfectly under the teardrop template for Doom Siren Death. Not that Berserker's can't benefit from Lash (everyone likes getting a charge a turn earlier because the enemy move closer), but they don't get quite as much mileage out of it.

Overall I think NM have a a respectable role to play in a lot of CSM armies. If I just had to pick one unit, I'd want to think about whether my army would be better served by an excellent HTH killy unit with tank-busting punch, or a strong HTH killy unit with a nasty AP3 heavy flamer. But I think they can easily complement each other and work well in the same army, too.

Mannahnin wrote:Overall I'd give the edge slightly to the berserkers.

+1A and +1 WS is overall certainly better than +1I, especially since the guy only costs 1pt more, and also comes with Furious Charge. So on the strength of the basic troopers, Zerks definitely edge out Noisies in HtH.

That said, if you want to pay 25pts/model for NMs with Sonic Blasters, you can have a unit that really puts out a LOT of antiinfantry firepower, which gives NMs role flexiblity Berserker's don't possess. For my money, though, this is usually not the best option. As Chaos in general is good at killing infantry in HTH, plus HTH happens twice per game turn, plus if you're locked in combat you're not getting shot. NMs not in combat (getting shot at), die just as fast as regular marines but cost substantially more.

no doubt.

So HTH is usually the better way to go, unless you're up against certain special units, like Genestealers, Eldar, DE without pain tokens, or IG blobs outside of cover, which Lash can help make happen. Lash can also make the 40pt Blastmaster well worth the points, as it can set up some really gorgeous shots to kill a bunch of marines at one go. Still, it's a goodly number of points invested in the combo, and you may want your limited number of lashes doing something else useful.

however zerkers are little more than pumped up marines after the 1st round of combat. they need to win on the charge.
also I think if you factor in the noise marines shooting on the way into combat they'll come out about equal to zerkers even on the initial round.

IMO the comparison becomes a bit more interesting when you bring the Champions into the equation.

The Berserker champion is certainly more killy in HTH. A S9 fist with 4A on the charge at WS5 is pretty doggone fearsome. It also can bust open tanks, which makes the zerks more flexible in terms of targets.

The NM champ can also take a fist, but doing so wastes his I5.

the zerker champ also wastes his I5 though.... which is the reason I usually dont go this route.

If I were running an all-Slaanesh army, I'd certainly still take fists in at least one or two squads, just because you really want that vehicle and monstrous creature-busting ability in your squads. But overall you'll usually see NM champs wield a power weapon, which uses his I5, gets him as many attacks as the berserker champ with a fist, and gives him the ability to remove models from most enemy units before those models get to swing. This adds to the durability of the unit in HTH, because less enemy get to throw attacks.

in my experience noise marines are fine for fighting other not-particularly assaulty units but dog meat against the power houses. since like you said they cost so much more than normal marines it really hurts.

The other great tool the NM champ can bring is of course the Doom Siren. As AF said, an AP3 S5 flamer is really excellent. It ignores the armor saves of most units in the game, and negates the ever-present cover saves that are just so good and so strong in 5th edition. It also gets to kill models in the shooting phase, before anyone attacks, so again can functionally increase the durability of the NMs against I5+ targets like Genestealers, DE, and Eldar. Of course the usual cautions apply about being careful when you're on the edge of assault range, because you don't want him removing the models in reach as casualties.

Of course, Lash adds value again in this situation, both being able to compensate for this and make sure the enemy unit is in assault range, or even better, moving the enemy so they're BOTH in guaranteed assault range AND are bunched up perfectly under the teardrop template for Doom Siren Death. Not that Berserker's can't benefit from Lash (everyone likes getting a charge a turn earlier because the enemy move closer), but they don't get quite as much mileage out of it.

mark of slaanesh hq fighting alonside berserkers?
NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no seriously. it works for game purposes but there's something about it....

Overall I think NM have a a respectable role to play in a lot of CSM armies. If I just had to pick one unit, I'd want to think about whether my army would be better served by an excellent HTH killy unit with tank-busting punch, or a strong HTH killy unit with a nasty AP3 heavy flamer. But I think they can easily complement each other and work well in the same army, too.

qft

When you take berserkers, you know exactly what you want them to do, get into combat, kill enough troops to win, but not wipe the other squad so they're sitting ducks in his next shooting phase.

When you take noise marines, the situation is different. You have to think about what you want them to do. Depending on how you gear them up, they will play vastly different roles.

5 marines, Doom Siren, Power sword and rhino - Great for flushing units out of cover. Dont expect to assault with that. The siren tends to do lots of damage and if your opponent knows what he is doing, he will remove the models that are within your assault range, preventing you from assaulting on that turn. If he counter assaults, then he will have to deal with an ini 5 power weapon.

8 marines, Power sword/fist, 3 sonic blaster, rhino - Usually just enough small shots from the sonic blasters to soften up a unit before the charge without potentially losing said charge range to careful removed models.

4 marines, blastmaster, rhino with havoc launcher - Excellent template squad that can remain on an objective and shoot from afar. Synergize well with a lash prince.

The biggest mistake that people do when playing Noise Marines is to over gear them. Keep them as cheap as possible and focus them to completing one objective well. Your much more likely to get your points back then.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the doom siren is one of the best weapons in the csm codex. it is absolutely worth it. it auto hits, it wounds most things on 3s or 2s, no cover, usually no armor save. its hard to argue with, really.

I practically never play with noise marines, the other month i did a fun list with a pair of small noise marine squads, and for shenanigans i decided to give the champ a siren

Rolling five 1's against a squad of sternguard, then losing four of them to in closecombat after charging... clearly a sign Slaanesh is not pleased with me!



As to the op's question... Looking at your squads, you're missing 5pts from what i see on your noise marines, aka a meltabomb because otherwise that squad will be helpess against a walker. If you're counter attacking, I'd rather a Hammer like bezerkers to go with my Plague marine Anvil. If you're assaulting, I'd rather the noise marines against marines, to AP 3 flame them and then charge, than the bezerkers, but pretty much only then. Against TEQ's and GEQ's I'd rather more str4(5) attacks

Voldrak wrote:When you take berserkers, you know exactly what you want them to do, get into combat, kill enough troops to win, but not wipe the other squad so they're sitting ducks in his next shooting phase.

When you take noise marines, the situation is different. You have to think about what you want them to do. Depending on how you gear them up, they will play vastly different roles.

I agree with that. they're considerably more flexible than zerkers.

5 marines, Doom Siren, Power sword and rhino - Great for flushing units out of cover. Dont expect to assault with that. The siren tends to do lots of damage and if your opponent knows what he is doing, he will remove the models that are within your assault range, preventing you from assaulting on that turn. If he counter assaults, then he will have to deal with an ini 5 power weapon.

8 marines, Power sword/fist, 3 sonic blaster, rhino - Usually just enough small shots from the sonic blasters to soften up a unit before the charge without potentially losing said charge range to careful removed models.

4 marines, blastmaster, rhino with havoc launcher - Excellent template squad that can remain on an objective and shoot from afar. Synergize well with a lash prince.

The biggest mistake that people do when playing Noise Marines is to over gear them. Keep them as cheap as possible and focus them to completing one objective well. Your much more likely to get your points back then.

I might be guilty of that. I always buy them the sonic blasters and doom sirens and power weapons because for 5 points the extra initiative and fearless isnt a good buy, but for 10 points the sonic blaster makes more sense. I'm already buying the champ to get the doom siren so giving him a power sword doesnt hurt that much. the blast master is usually a no go for me. when everyone's getting cover ap 3 just isnt that big of a deal. Now if it were a large blast template.....

AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihallah wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the doom siren is one of the best weapons in the csm codex. it is absolutely worth it. it auto hits, it wounds most things on 3s or 2s, no cover, usually no armor save. its hard to argue with, really.

I practically never play with noise marines, the other month i did a fun list with a pair of small noise marine squads, and for shenanigans i decided to give the champ a siren

Rolling five 1's against a squad of sternguard, then losing four of them to in closecombat after charging... clearly a sign Slaanesh is not pleased with me!

I might be guilty of that. I always buy them the sonic blasters and doom sirens and power weapons because for 5 points the extra initiative and fearless isnt a good buy, but for 10 points the sonic blaster makes more sense. I'm already buying the champ to get the doom siren so giving him a power sword doesnt hurt that much. the blast master is usually a no go for me. when everyone's getting cover ap 3 just isnt that big of a deal. Now if it were a large blast template.....

AF

When I played an Emperor's Children army in 4th edition, I rarely used blast masters either, but all my NM squads were outfitted with sonic blasters and a doom siren/pw champ. Occassionally I'd throw in one or two 5 man NM squads with a blast master and bolters to objective sit but with all the cover and the ability to go to ground with 5th edition I couldn't see taking them any more.

yeah. tacticals get a plasma cannon for like 5 points and that thing is ap 2 so why does chaos have to pay 40 points for an ap 3 version? I do not dig it.

Berserkers would win

EwanLumsden wrote:Berserkers would win

That makes little sence. It depends on what situation they are in and please dont show your own name and spam.

EwanLumsden wrote:Berserkers would win

Yeah, in HtH they would, at any sort of range the Noise Marines would blast them apart (hehe get it blast... blastmaster... hehe... bad pun)

But seriously, Berzerkers if you REALLY want to charge them up as fast as humanly possible and slaughter something on your own assault phase, Noise Marines if you want them to sit back a little and kill stuff BEFORE getting charged into on theirs.

two c's in sense.... reaper.

Berserkers, sorry The extra attack is worth more than the initiative, IMO. Not to mention hitting on 3s against other marines.

The doom siren is definitely a great asset, but I think 24 attacks on the charge is much better than 16.

I will say, NM's used to be so much better in third. You could essentially make them havocs. I believe you could take five guys and three of them could be Blastmasters for like 20 points. The other two had sonic blasters standard, which was amazing as a campy unit. Now you can still shoot the BM out of a rhino...But it's fourty points

whose init 6?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Voldrak wrote:The biggest mistake that people do when playing Noise Marines is to over gear them. Keep them as cheap as possible and focus them to completing one objective well. Your much more likely to get your points back then.

I might be guilty of that. I always buy them the sonic blasters and doom sirens and power weapons because for 5 points the extra initiative and fearless isnt a good buy, but for 10 points the sonic blaster makes more sense. I'm already buying the champ to get the doom siren so giving him a power sword doesnt hurt that much.

I agree with Voldrak on this one. Sonic Blasters put out a lot of shots, but if you want them as an aggressive unit, the NMs are CSMs (-meltas) + I5 + Fearless and unlock the option of the Doom Siren. Those three things are what you're paying for, not just the first two. The I5 also, of course, gives you more value from the PW by reducing the number of incoming attacks.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah. tacticals get a plasma cannon for like 5 points and that thing is ap 2 so why does chaos have to pay 40 points for an ap 3 version? I do not dig it.

Different philosophy behind each codex. Plus the NMs can take 5 guys and still get the blastmaster, where you need 10 tacs to unlock the plasmacannon. Plus, ya know, loyalists are generally supposed to be shootier. Plus Lash allows you to force people into bunching up for the blastmaster (which GW might have actually thought of, given that both are Slaaneshi), which loyalists can't do.

I wouldnt mind paying 20 extra points for the blast master, because its potentially strong.... but with psychic defenses everywhere protecting from lash + scatter rolls + 4+ cover the blastmaster just isnt a good gun. Its too weak to hurt vehicles, not reliable enough to hurt infantry, and just over priced in general. I could see paying a premium to have this gun in a codex thats normally more assault oriented than the imperial codex, but 40 points is just too much. a blast master is not 8 times as effective as a plasmacannon. thats all.

Ive never run the 5 man squad with noise champion + doom siren so I really cant comment on it from experience. I'll give it a try though. could work.

I agree with Voldrak on this one. Sonic Blasters put out a lot of shots, but if you want them as an aggressive unit, the NMs are CSMs (-meltas) + I5 + Fearless and unlock the option of the Doom Siren. Those three things are what you're paying for, not just the first two. The I5 also, of course, gives you more value from the PW by reducing the number of incoming attacks.

+1 to Mannahnin, but I'd like to add that taking sonic blasters also turns NMs shooting weapon from rapid fire to assault. So NMs on the charge have fewer CC attacks than berzerkers but they can unload their sonic blasters before jumping into the fray.

true but the sonic blasters dont synergize well with the doom siren, since wound allocation means he can just dump all of the ap 3 shots on the sergeant or whatever, if and only if he has to take a bunch of other saves. which the sonic blasters provide. I dont like having to hold back with that gun when I charge with a squad of noise marines. but what you say about shooting before assaulting is definitely true too. noise marines actually have more attacks than the zerkers if you factor in shooting and close combat. maybe those two kinds of squads should have different roles.

Voldrak wrote:When you take berserkers, you know exactly what you want them to do, get into combat, kill enough troops to win, but not wipe the other squad so they're sitting ducks in his next shooting phase.

When you take noise marines, the situation is different. You have to think about what you want them to do. Depending on how you gear them up, they will play vastly different roles.

5 marines, Doom Siren, Power sword and rhino - Great for flushing units out of cover. Dont expect to assault with that. The siren tends to do lots of damage and if your opponent knows what he is doing, he will remove the models that are within your assault range, preventing you from assaulting on that turn. If he counter assaults, then he will have to deal with an ini 5 power weapon.

8 marines, Power sword/fist, 3 sonic blaster, rhino - Usually just enough small shots from the sonic blasters to soften up a unit before the charge without potentially losing said charge range to careful removed models.

4 marines, blastmaster, rhino with havoc launcher - Excellent template squad that can remain on an objective and shoot from afar. Synergize well with a lash prince.

The biggest mistake that people do when playing Noise Marines is to over gear them. Keep them as cheap as possible and focus them to completing one objective well. Your much more likely to get your points back then.

These are very good points.
Berzerkers are really mono-dimensional, while NM can fulfill several roles. The doom siren is one of the best flamer weapons in the game, especially when combined with the lash.