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Does weapon destroyed against a Manticore mean All Rockets are K.O'ed, or just one? Need to know because my game group goes by rule interpretation and this forum is of great help.

The Manticore's weapon is a single weapon that fires 4 times. As such, one weapon destroyed will take out the WHOLE weapon. It is not 4 seperate, 1-shot weapons.

A manticore is a tank that carries "storm eagle rockets" not a "storm eagle rocket launcher".

Because it carries multiple rockets, it carries multiple weapons, which require multiple weapon destroyed results to get rid of.

Of course, it's not like this isn't a hotly debated issue. You'll probably have to 4+ it...

Ailaros wrote:A manticore is a tank that carries "storm eagle rockets" not a "storm eagle rocket launcher".

It has both. According to the Storm Eagle Rockets rules entry, it has a Rocket Launcher that fires Storm Eagle Rockets.

Which sounds like a single weapon to me. Backed up by having a 'Limited Ammunition' rule, rather than a 'Limited shots rule.

A single 'Weapon Destroyed' result will stop the Manticore from firing any missiles.

The manticore has one weapon listed in it's warger:
-Storm Eagle Rockets.
It then has the limited ammunition rule that lets it fire 4 times.

Compare this to a Razorwing which has:
-Four Monoscythe missiles

Yay for consistency.

From a fluff perspective, a single debilitating hit on the rocket launcher itself would make it so that the launcher simply can not fire anymore, or the missiles themselves have been destroyed or some other atrocity.

In addition, as was said earlier, the Manticore's wargear description says 'Storm Eagle Rockets' which is a weapon that posesses the limited ammunition special rule. When combined with the fact that the Valkyrie is described as carrying 2 single shot weapons, instead of a single weapon with limited ammo and the fluff idea, I'd say that a single weapons destroyed result would destroy any and all remaining rockets on a Manticore.

P.S.
Didn't we have a massive debate on this exact same topic a few months ago? What was the final verdict then?

Sentai_Sage wrote:The Manticore's weapon is a single weapon that fires 4 times. As such, one weapon destroyed will take out the WHOLE weapon. It is not 4 seperate, 1-shot weapons.

That is how it is played at my FLGS, and has been ruled in tournaments.

Thanks folks. I wish they had written a paragraph about how exactly to treat weapon detroyed agains a Manticore the same way they did for the Deathstrike.
It seems more "realistic", (for lack of a better term), that because of the size and positioning of the Stormeagle Rockets, to hit the actual rail system they sit upon would be a very difficult shot to make. Therefore only a Rocket at a time would be destroyed.
That being said, I see the arguement set against my intrepretaion and bow to masses. It does seem that the wording of Limited Ammunition and Stormeagle Rockets listed as a single weapon is the Key.
If only they has said 4 X Stormeagle Rockets instead...
Thanks Dakka!
Great Help as always.

I agree thoroughly. If only for consistency it should have been four rockets. Since they're ordnance only one be fired a turn anyway. The limited ammunition rule would not have been required.

That kinda makes the Manticore a tad OP, if weapons destroyed only takes out one rocket at a time. I'd say just change the name to 'Storm Eagle Launcher' or 'Storm Eagle battery' or something like that...

Well, not really. A manticore only gets 4 shots. A weapon destroyed result takes out 25% of its firepower, and that's at the beginning of the game. If it's already shot three times, then you've just shut it down for the rest of the game.

Another thing I question for those of you who believe it's a single system: what arc can it shoot in? All weapon mounting systems let you know if they're hull mounted or are on turrets, or sponsons, which the manticore doesn't say. This is because they're pintle weapons, just like hunter-killer missiles.

If you don't believe it's 4 pintle-mounted missiles, then what's to say you can't only fire in a 45 degree front arc, or in no arc at all?

I suppose, that is the case. But, that also means that if you roll weapons destroyed at the beginning of the game, you've just turned your opponents 160 pts model into a nearly useles thing. The same piece of balance is used on almost all other Imperial artillery.

I don't know why they failed to provide an arc...but no other entry in the codex says that a specific weapon is 'turret mounted' or 'hull mounted' or whatever. Iirc the BRB says that any weapons have an arc equal to what the weapon can physically turn on the model, with hull mounted weapons have a 45 degree front arc. With the Manticore, since the missile battery can't rotate on the model, I assume it has the same 45 degree front arc.

One weapon destroyed takes out all remaining missiles.

The fire arc depends on the "pattern" of Manticore you have. If yours is similar to the Forge World one, it's turret mounted. Similar to the Citadel version, hull mounted.

The fire arc isn't specified as they've largely stopped doing that in 5th edition books. The go-to rule is that a weapon can fire in whatever arc it looks like it can fire in - see the rulebook FAQ.

Ailaros wrote: All weapon mounting systems let you know if they're hull mounted or are on turrets, or sponsons, which the manticore doesn't say.

No they don't. None of the standard weapons on any of the IG vehicles specify a mounting type.

e.g. Chimera.
Wargear:
Multilaser
Heavy Bolter

I play them such as a single weapon. When firing the D3 blasts, I roll a separate scatter score for each "shot" as well because its a single weapon, not a multi-weapon barrage.

Well, it came up.
My ultra marine opponant scored a weapon destroyed result with two Stormeagle rockets left to be fired and sure enough, we all voted they were gone.
Sad.
So so sad...

Ailaros wrote:Another thing I question for those of you who believe it's a single system: what arc can it shoot in?

I'm not sure what being 1 system has to do with that exactly...

All weapon mounting systems let you know if they're hull mounted or are on turrets, or sponsons, which the manticore doesn't say. This is because they're pintle weapons, just like hunter-killer missiles.

Pintle-mounts are also supposed to be stated in the entry.

The reason it's not listed as a specific type of mounting is because despite GW saying in the rulebook that vehicle weapons have this stated in their entries, they then almost immediately tossed that out the window and didn't bother actually following through with it with any sort of consistency (or at all, in some case) in the codexes.

If you don't believe it's 4 pintle-mounted missiles, then what's to say you can't only fire in a 45 degree front arc, or in no arc at all?

As per the Rulebook FAQ, if the weapon's mounting is not specified in the vehicle's entry, it's as per the model. So if you're using the regular (non-Forgeworld) model, it does indeed have a 45 degree arc due to being hull-mounted.

Skawt wrote:I play them such as a single weapon. When firing the D3 blasts, I roll a separate scatter score for each "shot" as well because its a single weapon, not a multi-weapon barrage.

Why? There are no rules for resolving multple blast shots from a single weapon. But we do have two FAQs (so far) where GW said to resolve this type of weapon using multiple barrage rules. See the Eldar and Nid FAQs for those.

insaniak wrote:

Ailaros wrote:A manticore is a tank that carries "storm eagle rockets" not a "storm eagle rocket launcher".

It has both. According to the Storm Eagle Rockets rules entry, it has a Rocket Launcher that fires Storm Eagle Rockets.

Which sounds like a single weapon to me. Backed up by having a 'Limited Ammunition' rule, rather than a 'Limited shots rule.

I disagree for the fact that the Manticore itself doesnt have a weapon (aside from the hull-mounted one). It has a platform. The platform carries 4 weapons in the form of rockets. if you look at modern day rockets they only require to be mounted to something to fire. The platform itself doesn't do any of real resolution of targets, launching, or attacking. It's done by the rocket (machine spirirt?) or the crew of the transporting vehicle (which can often be off site).

I would say if the listing was Storm Eagle Rocket launcher it would probably knock it out.

Going to say +1 to Ailaros' first post. And as he said you're going to have to +4 roll it. =/

Brennus43 wrote:I disagree for the fact that the Manticore itself doesnt have a weapon (aside from the hull-mounted one). It has a platform.

Which would be fine, if there were rules for platforms.


Modern day weapons have nothing whatsoever to do with the rules of fictional weapons on fictional tanks in a fictional setting designed for a game of science fantasy toy soldiers. The missiles work like any other vehicle weapon, because that's all that they can do within the confines of the rules mechanics.

insaniak wrote:because that's all that they can do within the confines of the rules mechanics.

Now that you put it that way, I understand what you're saying. Which is good because I didn't magnetize each missile, just the whole rack... Irony.

Edit: And now that I look at the codex it's listed as "Storm Eagle Rockets" which I think means they would be a unit, not individuals. If it had said Four Storm Eagle Rockets I still may have thought otherwise.

hey buddy, sorry for causing such consternation (above-mentioned Ultramarines player) :--)



in your own words, the Emperor protects, but he has favourites

Just remember to keep it way out of the reach of people and vehicles trying to kill it. Park it in the corner in some scenery, and shoot out from there.

Ailaros wrote:
Another thing I question for those of you who believe it's a single system: what arc can it shoot in? All weapon mounting systems let you know if they're hull mounted or are on turrets, or sponsons, which the manticore doesn't say. This is because they're pintle weapons, just like hunter-killer missiles.

If you don't believe it's 4 pintle-mounted missiles, then what's to say you can't only fire in a 45 degree front arc, or in no arc at all?

Depends on the model.

FW or GW.

FW is on a turret. Ergo, has a 360* AoF.
The GW one is not, ergo a 45* forward arc.