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In 2nd edition there was the hint that Calistarius had become a vampire, sharing as he did a WFB Vampire's characteristics.

It seems to me that the Bloodthirster Ka' Bandha had corrupted Sanguinius and haunts his sons to this day both in the form of a ravening monster, and in the form of the Red Thirst and Black Rage. However, there is a Power in the Warp that would protect the Blood Angels against Khorne's predations...

It seems that there's broad hints that Brother Calistarius isn't alone inside his head, and that he's possessed by a Keeper of Secrets. For what could be worse than the Black Rage?

He has some of the characteristics and the rules, and it's in keeping with the Blood Angels being torn between being bloodthirsty killers and decadent artists.

What do you think?

Doesn't really make any sense, if sanguinius was corrupted why did he fight horus?

blood angels don't need blood to live, its a lust that is caused by a geneseed fault.

apart from in the new chaos deamons book khrone doesn't like slannesh at all.

the origins of the red thirst and black rage are pretty well explained already by GW

and possession doesn't work that way in the 40k universe

Gotta say, finding it hard to follow your argument there, Nurglitch. Sorry to burden you, but could you spell it out for me?
(My brain is at something like 50% running capacity, if it helps)

Becuase what do you think would of happend if Hourus won.
Chaos gods will lose most of the constant death and pain from humanty.
They used Hourus to destroy the Emperor psychicly and have left him in a terrible state , causing massive corruption in the Imperium and constant death. The Imperium feeds Chaos every day why stop that?

blood reaper wrote:Becuase what do you think would of happend if Hourus won.
Chaos gods will lose most of the constant death and pain from humanty.
They used Hourus to destroy the Emperor psychicly and have left him in a terrible state , causing massive corruption in the Imperium and constant death. The Imperium feeds Chaos every day why stop that?

cos as we know khrone's the thinker/planner of the gods

BluntmanDC wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Becuase what do you think would of happend if Hourus won.
Chaos gods will lose most of the constant death and pain from humanty.
They used Hourus to destroy the Emperor psychicly and have left him in a terrible state , causing massive corruption in the Imperium and constant death. The Imperium feeds Chaos every day why stop that?

cos as we know khrone's the thinker/planner of the gods

Is that a joke?

yes i thought the faceplam would give it away, no part of nurglitch's theory makes sense

Didnt quite understand what you were trying to say either. Think your mind is working faster than ur fingers friend.

Mephiston is deff either possessed or tainted by chaos as his new fluff (and stat line) elludes.

The Black rage is clearly explained... the red thirst on the otherhand not so much. Were does it come from and what causes it?

I believe there is some piece of old fluff that it is a curse (gift?) laid down on the chapter by the lord of all bloodthirsters after sangunious pwnd him and his stoolies.

Cant seem to find were i heard that though. Think that would be interesting and actually make sense. Though this would make the chapter and there succesors heretical in the extreme.

He could have been manipulated into fighting Horus.

They definately throw a hint that, at the very least, Mephiston himself is, if only slightly, worried that he might be.. influenced.. at the very least perhaps, by "outside forces".

Now this could just have been the last gambit or attack by M'kar to weaken his resolve, or.. maybe it is something more.

It would, perhaps, be quite fitting that the one who is seen perhaps as the embodiment of the eventual redemption of the Chapter is also the one who harbours their doom in him as well.

Okay, that does sound kinda cool.
It certainly would add an interesting double-edge to the character.

The new book definately seem to hint at something wrong with Mephiston. Fulgrim was als possessed in a similar way prior to his fall so it's not entirely out of the question. Looking at his in-game profile, it appears as though he's much more stronger than a Daemon Prince, and just as strong as a Greater Daemon. He is also introvert and silent, which might mean he is possessed and plotting.

I think Sanguinius being possessed could potentially work, especially due to how he didn't seem to put up much of a fight against Horus; almost as if he was using what uncorrupted part of his mind he had left to end himself and deprive Chaos of another Primarch. He was after all one of the most noble Primarches, and it seems like something he'd do.

The red thirst could also work as daemonic taint hidden within a geneseed and masked as a geneseed fault. The warp works in mysterious ways, and it could be possible to cloak the true cause, especially seing as how other geneseeds also seem to have faults (although none seem to be as bad as the BA fault).

Mephiston may have appeared to 'overcome' the thirst, or his mind simply gave up and allowed itself to be possessed.

Just because the AdMech observes geneseed for taint with every tithe doesn't mean they know every taint there is or how to be sure that it is taint; even in modern day medicine, diseases and infections can still mask themselves and appear harmless or as something they are not until the time where it is too late to stop what rages inside you, why can't warp energies manifest themselves as such?

Agian, this is all just speculation i'm throwing out there because i'm bored with the whole "Vampirez! Lulz!" crap, and I want to make it a bit more exciting or deeper than just wondering why they don't sparkle in the light.

Avatar 720 wrote:why they don't sparkle in the light.

^This

Does anyone else find it odd(/ super duper lame) that the two most popular and powerful marine chapters are space vampires and space werewolves?

I ain't hatin I'm just sayin... It's probably all a part of a secret GW plan to get girls to play 40k.

DeepBeige wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:why they don't sparkle in the light.

^This

Does anyone else find it odd(/ super duper lame) that the two most popular and powerful marine chapters are space vampires and space werewolves?

I ain't hatin I'm just sayin... It's probably all a part of a secret GW plan to get girls to play 40k.

Twihards like super-slick, smooth-skinned, fantasy males, not blood-frenzied madmen and hairy beer-swillers.
Once again, GW's got it's wires crossed.

I know, they were so close though... the resemblance is uncanny.

Avatar 720:

I agree. I suppose the whole Twilight joke is cool if you're 12, but I figure the best thing to do with the Blood Angels background material is to find what's cool in it rather than what's lame.

I feel like it's a bit far-fetched to say that Sanguinius himself was corrupted by Ka'Bandha, since almost all the fluff about him seems to indicate otherwise.

However, the idea that Ka'Bandha and Sanguinius have an even longer history, going back to Sanguinius' origins, is not unreasonable - which might explain the source of the Red Thirst and Sanguinius' oddly enhanced psychic powers.

Going beyond that, I would agree that it's not unreasonable that Calistarius, during his time trapped in Hades Hive, became possessed by a daemon (a Keeper of Secrets would make sense) that allowed him to overcome the Red Thirst and greatly augment his powers.

I don't think its really safe to say that he's possessed, at least if we consider the Black Library novels to be canon. In the Blood Angels Omnibus, Mephiston is exposed to the Spear of Telesto, which appeared to have Chaos cleansing powers. So if he were in fact possessed, it would have been brought to light then and there. I believe the novel (or possibly even the codex, I can't remember exactly right now) said that the red thirst essentially re-activated his gene seed, so it's quite possible that his stat line is the result of it pumping more hormones and such into his body.

Aethis wrote:I don't think its really safe to say that he's possessed, at least if we consider the Black Library novels to be canon. In the Blood Angels Omnibus, Mephiston is exposed to the Spear of Telesto, which appeared to have Chaos cleansing powers. So if he were in fact possessed, it would have been brought to light then and there. I believe the novel (or possibly even the codex, I can't remember exactly right now) said that the red thirst essentially re-activated his gene seed, so it's quite possible that his stat line is the result of it pumping more hormones and such into his body.

Actually, while the Spear does target Chaos, it doesn't hurt any member of the Blood Angels,



However, that fact that he is more taciturn doesn't mean he's possessed, that's most Space Marines right off the bat. While his being possessed would not be unreasonable, I'd imagine a Lord of Change rather than a Keeper of Secrets, as he doesn't seem devoted to pleasure (and pain), but is more about his psychic powers, planning, and cunning.

However, given the Space Marines' willpower (for example Lemartes being lucid while succumbed to the Black Rage), throwing off the Red Thirst via sheer willpower may not be too unreasonable.

On one hand, it would make sense for him to be possessed, on the other hand, canon seems to say otherwise.

Slaanesh isn't all cocaine and unicorns. It's also about secrets; the dirtier the better. There's a neat little colour piece in Codex: Chaos Daemons about how a Keeper of Secrets managed to get Itself into an Eldar Craftworld. And then rapes it.

Or there's that interesting bit in Ravenor: Rogue where the Inquisitor's protege is possessed by the Daemon Slyte which, like Ravenor, can conceal itself from the attention of others around it despite being immensely powerful - scratch that - because it is immensely powerful.

If powerful psyckers inimical to the predations of Chaos can be curb-stomped by Slaanesh, the Blood Angels are just asking for hurt. Speaking of hurt...

It's kind of a pity that people get carried away by the whole Slaanesh = BDSM thing because it obscures Slaanesh's true nature as perversion. The perversion of pleasure into pain, making glory hollow, and desire the source of your own destruction. If Tzeentch changes things amorally, Slaanesh changes things for the worse. If Nurgle corrupts, Slaanesh subverts. What Khorne destroys, Slaanesh drives mad. Slaanesh alone amongst the Chaos Gods is evil. Falsehoods conceals the truth with lies, and turn good intentions into bad results.

I mean, if there's one thing the background is clear on, it's that the corruptions of Chaos are subtle. It's like the old phrase: Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the one addressed "To Whom it may Concern".

The Blood Angels, for example, are a poster-child for the Blood God. The difference between them and the World Eaters is a noble purpose, rather than shedding blood for the sake of it. But if a noble purpose is what's keeping them from the clutches of Khorne, that's exactly the sort of petard that Slaanesh hoists people on.

Take Dante hanging on because he foresees a golden figure standing between the Emperor and victory. Talk about vainglorious. You know who else is a golden figure in Warhammer 40,000?

As for why, the real question is why not. The Chaos Gods are all capricious back-stabbing atemporal nihilisms. Motivation doesn't really apply to them; they just are. The C'tan ate themselves out of house and nearly home. The Necron's jealosy destroyed them. The Old Ones might have been lost in the Enslaver plague, which nearly wiped out the galaxy they had fought to preserve. The Eldar Empire destroyed itself giving birth to Slaanesh, and the Human Imperium is exactly what both the Emperor and Horus didn't want. In 40k stuff tends to go wrong in direct proportion to its importance, and that's because Slaanesh is a feature of that universe rather than because It is an actor. It doesn't discriminate.

Where Slaanesh is involved, things can always get worse.

Calistarius has all of the features of a possessed psycker. There's a reason the Imperium fears psyckers, and it's not because they occasionally turn out to be powerful (the Imperium can use that), it's because they can be weak. The Red Thirst/Black Rage pushed him beyond his limits. Beyond limits lies Slaanesh.

I agree with Nurglitch’s claims as there is some educated merit. The fact the Slaanesh is more about secrets more than the “lolololol perversion” that people seemed to get to wrapped up in. I remember the previous Chaos codex stated that Slaanesh more or less finds out your deepest and darkest secrets and desires and uses it against you.

Pretty much the statement “Slaanesh isn't all cocaine and unicorns. It's also about secrets; the dirtier the better” says it all. This is definitely finding a home in my sig.

Nurglitch wrote:Slaanesh isn't all cocaine and unicorns. It's also about secrets; the dirtier the better. There's a neat little colour piece in Codex: Chaos Daemons about how a Keeper of Secrets managed to get Itself into an Eldar Craftworld. And then rapes it.

Or there's that interesting bit in Ravenor: Rogue where the Inquisitor's protege is possessed by the Daemon Slyte which, like Ravenor, can conceal itself from the attention of others around it despite being immensely powerful - scratch that - because it is immensely powerful.

If powerful psyckers inimical to the predations of Chaos can be curb-stomped by Slaanesh, the Blood Angels are just asking for hurt. Speaking of hurt...

It's kind of a pity that people get carried away by the whole Slaanesh = BDSM thing because it obscures Slaanesh's true nature as perversion. The perversion of pleasure into pain, making glory hollow, and desire the source of your own destruction. If Tzeentch changes things amorally, Slaanesh changes things for the worse. If Nurgle corrupts, Slaanesh subverts. What Khorne destroys, Slaanesh drives mad. Slaanesh alone amongst the Chaos Gods is evil. Falsehoods conceals the truth with lies, and turn good intentions into bad results.

I mean, if there's one thing the background is clear on, it's that the corruptions of Chaos are subtle. It's like the old phrase: Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the one addressed "To Whom it may Concern".

The Blood Angels, for example, are a poster-child for the Blood God. The difference between them and the World Eaters is a noble purpose, rather than shedding blood for the sake of it. But if a noble purpose is what's keeping them from the clutches of Khorne, that's exactly the sort of petard that Slaanesh hoists people on.

Take Dante hanging on because he foresees a golden figure standing between the Emperor and victory. Talk about vainglorious. You know who else is a golden figure in Warhammer 40,000?

As for why, the real question is why not. The Chaos Gods are all capricious back-stabbing atemporal nihilisms. Motivation doesn't really apply to them; they just are. The C'tan ate themselves out of house and nearly home. The Necron's jealosy destroyed them. The Old Ones might have been lost in the Enslaver plague, which nearly wiped out the galaxy they had fought to preserve. The Eldar Empire destroyed itself giving birth to Slaanesh, and the Human Imperium is exactly what both the Emperor and Horus didn't want. In 40k stuff tends to go wrong in direct proportion to its importance, and that's because Slaanesh is a feature of that universe rather than because It is an actor. It doesn't discriminate.

Where Slaanesh is involved, things can always get worse.

Calistarius has all of the features of a possessed psycker. There's a reason the Imperium fears psyckers, and it's not because they occasionally turn out to be powerful (the Imperium can use that), it's because they can be weak. The Red Thirst/Black Rage pushed him beyond his limits. Beyond limits lies Slaanesh.

Alright, I concede your point, I'm more familiar with the idea of Slaanesh being the "Prince of Pain' with the half-female half-male body, as it is the more discussed domain he controls, you must admit.

That really is a well-said argument Nurglitch, and I can recognize that. It makes a lot more sense now.

Nurglitch wrote:
It's kind of a pity that people get carried away by the whole Slaanesh = BDSM thing because it obscures Slaanesh's true nature as perversion. The perversion of pleasure into pain, making glory hollow, and desire the source of your own destruction. If Tzeentch changes things amorally, Slaanesh changes things for the worse. If Nurgle corrupts, Slaanesh subverts. What Khorne destroys, Slaanesh drives mad. Slaanesh alone amongst the Chaos Gods is evil. Falsehoods conceals the truth with lies, and turn good intentions into bad results.

I mean, if there's one thing the background is clear on, it's that the corruptions of Chaos are subtle. It's like the old phrase: Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the one addressed "To Whom it may Concern".

The Blood Angels, for example, are a poster-child for the Blood God. The difference between them and the World Eaters is a noble purpose, rather than shedding blood for the sake of it. But if a noble purpose is what's keeping them from the clutches of Khorne, that's exactly the sort of petard that Slaanesh hoists people on.


Where Slaanesh is involved, things can always get worse.

Beyond limits lies Slaanesh.

Ah, a man who shares my views and understands why Slaanesh is my favorite of the Chaos Gods. This is an excellent description!

Slaanesh is the soul destroyer, the true corrupter and the damnation of all. Slaanesh is a wanton and jealous god whos thirst is never quenched.

That's a pretty solid argument

The showdown with M'kar, given the nature of M'kar, seems to suggest that Mephiston is a nascent Daemon Prince rather than the victim of possession (I'm under the impression that these are distinct states). If the Red Thirst = BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD and the Black Rage = SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE, then it probably has more to do with the Emperor's alleged pacts with the Ruinous Powers in creating the Primarchs than Sanguinius's battle with that conga line of BloodThirsters. The story of Mephiston's "rebirth" does not easily fit into any Chaos tropes, however, because it is so consciously a vampiric trope. At any rate, it doesn't seem to point toward possession. I'd be more inclined to say that Blood Angels are genetically pre-disposed to daemoinic ascension in the service of Khorne. I don't see any place for Slaanesh here: (IMO) the refinement of the Blood Angels' aesthetic tastes is meant to contrast with their bestial fury, not convey decadence. I think the Blood Angels might be particularly resistant to the lures of Slaanesh because the only excess that seems to trouble them is one that the Prince of Excess cannot wholly fathom--else s/he would be compelled to worship her/his very nemesis.

Oh yeeeaaaah, I read somewhere about how M'Kar told Mephiston that he's on the path to daemonhood.

Both Manchu and Nurglitch have some very good arguments.

I think there is a definite worthy premise in here, Tzeentch would love to have hatched something so complex to ensnare a Primarch became possessed... Equally Mephiston would be a big win for Chaos undivided, I even like the dark element of it. The Dark Angels have a Dark Secret and so do the Blood Angels, it just makes the Ultramarines look even more noble and straight up.

the red thurst was bestowed on to the blood angels legion when Horus to a deamon world to die. The black rage happened after sanguinius saw so many of his sons killed by said blood thurster and he went berserk cus of it

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:the red thurst was bestowed on to the blood angels legion when Horus to a deamon world to die.

What??? That doesn't make any sense.
I think the good points about slaanesh have been made already. It sure does explain a lot about mephiston anyways!