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So my buddies and I have all been having great fun trying out a variety of different armies over Vassal, which has been a nice break from our standard lists. (Especially since some of the players in our local group don't play as much anymore). Anyhow, I wanted to see how the "cheesy" 5th ed marine codices played compared to my second tier Black Templars and Chaos Marines, so I whipped up some Blood Angles lists, but I haven't met with much success.

So far the lists I've run have been very infantry/dreadnought based, but I feel like mech is still the way to go, even with BA assault marines.

That said, here's my dilemma. I have a new list featuring a pair of TL Lascannon Razorbacks, a HF Razorback (for rushing objectives/tying up ranged squads), a pair of fast Vindicators, and a cheesy talon/HF/EA furioso in a stormraven. So I'm left with just enough points for my stock reclusiarch, and a "hammer" close combat unit. Herein lies my problem: I'm not sure what to take.

For the points I've got, I can take either a 5-man TH/SS unit, or a 6-man DC unit w/ 6 power weapons, (or something else, but I haven't seen too many other "hammer" units that seem effective). So I realize that the 6-man DC are going to hit a lot harder than the TH/SS, and basically decimate anything they touch that is I5 or lower. With 3+/FNP, the DC have what amounts to a 2+ save (although this is different in my experience, but I'm only going by statistics). Initially, the DC seemed like the no-brainer choice, but then I thought about overall survivability and post-disembark-assault turns. DC suffer from Rage, meaning that they may very well be forced into a counter-charge scenario, which negates pretty much all of their bonuses. With no invulnerable save to speak of, even a small unit of I4+ power weapons is going to lobotomize the unit, as there are only 6 models. Furthermore, the DC will almost certainly be exposed to shooting after they disembark, since they will kill what they assault.

That got me thinking about the 5-man TH/SS, or a combo of LC/TH/SS terminators. Against monstrous creatures and the like, the terminators statistically perform comparably to the DC, and have much higher survivability. What the terminators lack is the high initiative to deal with heavy-hitting I4/I5 close combat specialists, as well as the WS5 to get in each precious hit (and prevent things like WS5 trygons from getting more hits against them). However, the TH/SS terminators are better at staying in combat, and being counter-charged, as they only lose the reroll to hit bonus, and the I1 penalty they inflict with their thunder hammers can help against monstrous creatures with I2+.

If I swap in some LCs into the squad, it reduces survivability by a bit, adds wound diversity, and adds a few S4 attacks at I4, which will help against enemy basic infantry.

Ideally, I'd like to have a 5-man, 2 claw/3 hammer assault terminator unit with Furious Charge (and maybe FNP) that rerolls hits, but I don't have the points for it.

So, thoughts? Given the rest of my army, do you think I need the versatility of the TH/SS, or the pure annihilation-power of the DC?

EDIT: AAAH I posted in the wrong section. Sorry this was meant to go in Tactics.

DC are very expensive, and taking the en mass, they rarely make up their points value. I would recommend you go for the Termies, but have a look at this guide on how to arm them if you do decide to go for DC. If you take Termies, a 2:3 ratio of LC to TH is always a good option, as you are fast enough to provide a battering from the Lightning Claws when you charge, and the Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields allow you to take on the toughest oppponents as well, giving you a large combat capability.

have you tried deepstriking the army? trying it with Vanguard vets and assault marines, libbys , priests?

It's infantry oriented and does well with mech

Well, since this is in YMDC, I feel like I should chime in with a rules issue.

So...

This is not a legal army, as the BGB clearly says you have to use citadel miniatures to play the game. Vassal uses sprites, not miniatures. Ergo, you cheated. You auto-loose.


That being said, I would recommend using your BT for "counts-as" BA. Vassal just does too poor a job of simulating the game, IMO.

I personally never had any luck with mixing LC's into my TH/SS Termies. IMO pure TH/SS.

From what ive heard and seen BA's are about speed lots of assault marines and rhino's

I have been playing them before and since this new codex came out, now Blood Angels don't do "Hammers" well, but if you are looking for one, this is the best I have found:

Librarian w/ Unleash Rage, Sanguine Sword, Terminator Armor, Storm Sheild
Sanguinary Priest w/ Terminator Armor
Assault Terminator Squad w/ 4 LC, 2 TH/SS in Land Raider Crusader

The nice thing about Blood Angels is the amount of speed they have. I can load up that brick unit, plop them into the Land Raider, and then deepstrike that Land Raider anywhere I want, smoked if necessary. It becomes more reliable once I throw a Locator Beacon Drop Pod in the mix, so I mitigate the risks of deepstriking. Asking your opponent to stop an AV 14 vehicle with a 4+ save in one turn is a little rough. Alot can do it, but not everybody.

I then get out and charge, if I can run amoke with my powers, I have a terminator unit with FNP hitting like a brick with re-rolls to hit, and to wound on str. 5 lightning claws. The Librarian has, and will again, clear out thunderwolf cav on his own with str. 10.

That is one option, DC are expensive, and I have found that smaller squads tend to do metter because they can be pretty cheap and supported with things like Librarian dreadnoughts and blood clawed dreadnoughts. DC Blood Claw dreadnoughts are awesome.

okay well, for death company, i wouldn't give all of them power weapons since you are likely to take at least a few casualties before they swing.
remember you aren't limited to 5 death company, they only take up 1 slot per guy in a transport.

for terminators, you can detach your priest and have him stand out of close combat but within 6" to give the terminators FNP.

in my exp, a heavy dose of furious charing lightning claws with a few storm shields to soak wounds /gets the job done/

Well I play Angry Marines that I use the Blood Angel codex for. My list features two hammer units both using Stormravens as transports. Each Stormraven is armed with Twin Linked Multi Melta 4 blood strike missiles and a Twin Linked Assault Cannon.

Stormraven one carries Mephiston and my Furioso Dreadnought with dual Blood Claws. I use this to mess up infantry and vehicles.

Stormraven two carries my Furioso Librarian and Death Company. The Dread generally has wings and Blood Lance. The Death Company has a Chaplain for those juicy re-roll to hit and wound. The Chaplain also has a combi weapon, usually a flamer. One Thunder Hammer, two power weapons, an infernus pistol and one with just a chain sword rounds out the five man company. This unit can handle just about anything.

What I like about this set up is that it forces the enemy to shoot at the Stormravens. If they even make it half way across the table then really the game is done. I have delivered my strike force into their face. If they make it all the way welcome to 2 Dreads a Death Company and Meph in your grill plus two Stormravens now unleashing everything and acting as gunships.

Then after these units have caused some damage my troops come in to mop up and claim objectives.

I have three 5 man assault marine squads in Razorbacks with Twin linked assault cannons. Each squad has a melta marine in it.

Add in 2-3 Ball Predators with Heavy Bolter sponsons and a regular predator with Twin Linked Las and that is the whole potato.

This set up has worked well and its fun to play with and against. I have no armor 14 vehicles. My troops can be killed or kill. It makes my enemy think and makes manoeuvrings key.

So I guess what I am saying is maybe a double hammer can suit you too.