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Toying around with Tau recently, no one from my local group has ever used them and now with 4 Dark Eldar Players, countless marines (SW/BT/Nilla/BA), orks (a horde and a kan wall), IG (a mech and a gunline), nids, and eldar.... I decide to be odd and roll up a Tau list. I want it to be competitive as there are 3 guys I play on a regular basis that play to win EVERY match, so the is acceptable. Again these are my first attempts at Tau (I usually play Chaos) so if you think any of my ideas are off the mark, please feel free to yell how I am a and tell me and I'll welcome any c+c

So here is my 1st try:

**Fireknife = Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod**

HQ
1 Shas'el, FireKnife, HW Multitracker, and a shield generator-107

Elite
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-226
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-226
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-226

Troops
6 FW, Shas-ui, bonded-75
-Devilfish, Disruption pod, SMS, Target Array, Multi-Tracker-120
6 FW, Shas-ui, bonded-75
-Devilfish, Disruption pod, SMS, Target Array, Multi-Tracker-120

Heavy Support
3 Broadsides, TEAM LEADER w/ TL Plasma Rifles, Shield Generator, Stabilizers, Shield Drones, Bonded-325
3 Broadsides, TEAM LEADER w/ TL Plasma Rifles, Shield Generator, Stabilizers, Shield Drones, Bonded-325
1 Hammerhead, Railgun, SMS, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker-175

Total: 2,000 on the dot (if I added wrong, again, please just let me know)

My concerns here are that at 2000 points I only have 2 scoring units, and I didn't have the points for a marker beacon... Also, did I go to suit crazy? Should I drop any suits to add in a Kroot Squad or 2? Also, Pathfinders, I think I should have added these guys in, and just use their devilfish for the fire warriors... But what would I shave to squeeze these fun little guys in? If I should config my suits differently let me know, are 3 fireknife squads too many?

That was a lot of questions, my bad dakka, just let me know....

Thanks!

Blank wrote:Toying around with Tau recently, no one from my local group has ever used them and now with 4 Dark Eldar Players, countless marines (SW/BT/Nilla/BA), orks (a horde and a kan wall), IG (a mech and a gunline), nids, and eldar....

The BA will be tougher to beat with 2nd Turn closing in of h2h that really hurts. Worse, a lucky Herioc Intervention (which *I* did to a tau player once, tying up 3 units in multiple assault ). Still, I'll give you what advice I can.

Orks & DE are, of course, faster, Turn 1, possibly. DE are a glass cannon though, and ... I figure most games between tau & DE are going to be horribly one-sided, depending on who goes first.

Blank wrote:1 Shas'el, FireKnife, HW Multitracker, and a shield generator-

Add a Target Array instead of Shield Gen, bringing BS up to 5. Get him a Shield Drone instead. Any Inuvln Save he'll have to make is likely to cause Instant Death and you'd rather have a SD bite it.

Blank wrote:3 Broadsides, TEAM LEADER w/ TL Plasma Rifles, Shield Generator, Stabilizers, Shield Drones, Bonded-325
3 Broadsides, TEAM LEADER w/ TL Plasma Rifles, Shield Generator, Stabilizers, Shield Drones, Bonded-

For the reasons I mentioned above, skip the Shield Gens. A LasCan or Lance is still going to cause ID and b-sides can save against Missile Launchers.

Blank wrote:My concerns here are that at 2000 points I only have 2 scoring units, and I didn't have the points for a marker beacon...

Yes, two scoring is the Achilles Heel here. I'd remove one FireKnife team for another Warfish/FW combo.

Blank wrote: Also, did I go to suit crazy? Should I drop any suits to add in a Kroot Squad or 2? Also, Pathfinders, I think I should have added these guys in, and just use their devilfish for the fire warriors...

PFs ought to be in a 2k list. I usually do.

Blank wrote: But what would I shave to squeeze these fun little guys in?

Make the b-side teams pairs, not triples.

Blank wrote:If I should config my suits differently let me know, are 3 fireknife squads too many?

Answered.

Things you should build your list around:

3x2 or 3x3 Broadsides w/team leader/target lock, shield drones, ASS. Each squad can target up to two targets.

Pathfinder team (for markerlights (use the devilfish with a FW squad to scoot onto an objective.

Small units of FWs on foot with markerlights to sit in cover and light up the enemy for your broadsides and crisis suits to deal with.

Lots of crisis suits. I mostly used the fireknife configuration, but double missile pod is also good.

Dig up some old posts by Dashofpepper here on dakka about building an effective tau gun line. I emulated his approach to tau to some success.

Also consider the "Farsight bomb" which is Commander Farsight with a retinue of seven or eight crisis suits and lots of sheild and gun drones and all kinds of other goodies.

What I would do for your heavy slots is take 2 Railheads and 1 squad of 3 broadsides. This gives you a good amount of rail guns as well as those nice pie plates.

I would also drop the TL Plasma Rifles in favor of the SMS. This will save you some more points for more FWs or Pathfinders.

Thanks for the feedback guys! With some changes Brothererekose and augustus5...

So here is my 2nd try:

**Fireknife = Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod**
**Warfish = Devilfish, Disruption pod, SMS, Target Array, Multi-Tracker**

HQ
1 Shas'el, FireKnife, HW Multitracker, Target Array, HW Drone Controller and a shield drone-112

Elite
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-211
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-211
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-211

Troops
6 FW, Shas-ui, bonded-75
6 FW, Shas-ui, bonded-75
10 Kroot-70

Fast
6 Pathfinders-72
-Warfish-120
6 Pathfinders-72
-Warfish-120

Heavy Support
2 Broadsides, TEAM LEADER w/ TL Plasma Rifles, Drone Controller, Stabilizers, 2 Shield Drones, Bonded-220
2 Broadsides, TEAM LEADER w/ TL Plasma Rifles, Drone Controller, Stabilizers, 2 Shield Drones, Bonded-220
1 Hammerhead, Railgun, SMS, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker-175

Total: 1,994 (if I added wrong, again, please just let me know)

I think this one is a little better...

Troops are WAY too few for 2k. It's clear to me that you don't give the fire warriors the respect they deserve. Have you ever rolled up on a nasty squad of (well anything) with 2 devilfish full of FWs, have them jump out behind the fish (using it for cover) and pump out 48 S5 shots at it? Add markerlight hits to taste. Yes, 48 S5 shots at BS 5. That's more like it I never use kroot, but that doesn't mean they're bad. They're great for sitting on objectives in cover or outflanking. If they're gonna assault, use some hounds. In 2k, I'd use at least 3 squads of 10+ firewarriors and maybe either a 4th or a kroot squad.

I prefer two railheads and 1x3 broadsides, but what you have is ok too. I have to say though, I do like the plasma rifles on on the 88s. The squad can hunt termies and other heavy infantry, but the default SMS works great against horde...

Your elite suits... Ok, I have to say, I've never really been a big fan of Fireknives. Plasma is great, but missiles are ho hum. They don't have the AP to deal with marines, and don't have the strength to deal with any vehicle over AV11 with any semblance of reliability. I use one unit, but only one, and only grudgingly. I think 10 fireknife suits is way too many. I think you'll find you really like the plasma, and will wonder what you're getting for the 120 points spent on the missile pods. My 2 cents

I much prefer Helios. Plasma & fusion + multitracker. Short range, wonderful results. Great for tanks and heavy infantry/death stars. Combine with a plasma/CIB (or fusion) Shas'el with some drones, and these boys can do some damage. FYI, the math on CIB is it is exactly as likely to kill a terminator as a fusion blaster, but also good with lighter infantry too.

Another XV8 unit I really like is a deepstriking suicide unit. 2 models with fusion and flamer. Pick which one you twin link based on its purpose (AT or AI). Using the pathfinder devilfish, you can reroll your scatter as long as you can see the fish in question. Melt something. The enemy then must deal with them, potentially after you've done quite a bit of damage. This unit also costs well under 100pts, so it usually pays for itself. If you can, deepstrike into cover, so you get to roll a save. Who cares if you take a wound on the way in.

And last, but not least, pathfinders. I love these guys. My 2k list plays with all 24 allowed. Some people say that's way overkill, but everyone I play knows to shoot them first. I'd try to bump your two units up to 8 at least to try it. You're only averaging 50% hits, and I love giving +2 BS and -2 cover saves. Everything relies on cover, and there are really only 3 ways in the game to remove it: Templates, CC, and markerlights. Great for exposing land raiders that pop smoke on turn 1 (+1 BS to railguns of your choice, -3 cover) You can hid them behind other units. No cover saves can be taken against markerlights, so you don't need to worry if there are friendly units (like XV88s) in between you and the enemy. You get cover, but don't give it.

My summary: take more troops and less suits. Especially less fireknife suits. Play around with the other configurations. Your heavy and fast are fine, although I tweak mine slightly different.

Don't listen to the wrong advice, keep your 2 teams of 3 broadsides. As you scale up to 2k or 2.5k, you need to cut HHs for broadsides. Your list has alot of areas for trimming, and with the points I can add 2 squads of kroots.

Trying not to change your list too much, I have the following :-

1 ShasEl (Plasma, MP, Tracker) - 87

3 FireKnife (MT) - 186
3 FireKnife (MT) - 186
3 FireKnife (MT) - 186

6 FWs (Fish, Pod) - 145
6 FWs (Fish,Pod) - 145
10 Kroots, 4 Hounds - 94
10 Kroots, 4 Hounds - 94

1 Piranha (FB, TA) - 75
1 Piranha (FB, TA) - 75

3 Broadsides, leader with lock, 2 shield drones (TA or ASS your preference) - 280
3 Broadsides, leader with lock, 2 shield drones (TA or ASS your preference) - 280
1 HammerHead (Tracker, BC, RailGun, Pod) - 165

Er, make sure you at least put a disruption pod on your hammerhead...

Also, something to note about the HH vs. XV88 debate is one of versatility vs. reliability, respectively. HH's get the submunition, so if you need to deal with horde, you're covered. Admittedly, for similar cost, you can get 8 shots with the two SMSs you get from 2 broadsides, but the hit & wound rolls (and the slightly worse AP) are going to really whittle down the actual wounds you put out. The broadsides, on the other hand, have their railguns twin-linked. Even at BS 3, that's already better than the HH's chance to hit, and in a Tau army, it's easy to bump up the BS at least +1.

Also, remember that your railguns are only as good as the pen rolls they give you. So if your opponent is getting to roll cover saves on his vehicles (popped smoke, behind cover, moved too fast, etc) then that's going be a big waste of points and time for you... and as Tau, you can't afford to have bad turn 1 shooting, especially with the railguns. You need to slow the advance right away. That's where your PFs and other markerlights are really going to make their money - elminating those all important turn 1 cover saves. Your positioning will also be key. If you can get clean shots (probably only if you go first, but...) and can avoid giving cover in the first place, then your valuable markerlights will be good for other shooting.

I agree with Davicus that the higher the points go, the more you need to get into broadsides than hammerheads (more actual railgun shots means more possible pen rolls which is something you'll need the higher points you get). I'm not convinced you need 6 of them at 2k, but it's certainly an option. 2500 you probably need at least that much.

My suggestion is that you cut one of your Fireknife units entirely, and change one to a helios. Pad both warrior squads to 12 and put a disruption pod on the pathfinders' fishes.

Try this:

1 ShasEl (Plasma, CIB, Tracker, 2 shield drones, bonding knife) - 125

3 FireKnife (MT) - 186
3 Helios (MT) - 186

12 FWs - 120
12 FWs - 120
10 Kroot, 5 Hounds - 100
10 Kroot - 70

8 pathfinders (Fish, disruption pods) - 181
8 pathfinders (Fish, disruption pods) - 181

3 Broadsides, leader with lock, 2 shield drones (ASS) - 280
3 Broadsides, leader with lock, 2 shield drones (ASS) - 280
1 HammerHead (Tracker, BC, RailGun, Disruption Pod) - 170

1999 pts

HQ attaches to helios squad for heavy hunting, or can switch to the fireknife squad if he needs to help with lighter infantry. Commander could also swap CIB for fusion, or even burst cannon, depending on the task. Also a CIB & AFP shas'el is funny for horde hunting, but might be better on his own (no need for BK then, and possibly no need for drones, up to you).

Using a helios squad is personal choice, since beyond 18" you'll mostly be taking potshots, but they earn their keep in a big hurry if you plan their movement properly. If you're new and want to stick with the more forgiving fireknife config for now, I can totally respect that.

Troops are more meaty. The two FW squads can hop in the PF fish, one kroot squad can camp in cover on your backfield objective while the other (with the hounds) can infiltrate or outflank. Never leave kroot out in the open.

Pathfinders both deploy behind a broadside squad for cover if nothing else is available.

I understand the draw of putting TA on your broadsides, but every time you have a dawn of war scenario you'll be kicking yourself. 6 out of your 7 railguns won't be able to shoot, and that WILL cost you, especially if you're going second. Buying ASS is insurance, and you have pathfinders if you need +1 BS. Also for dawn of war, I occasionally find myself putting (gulp!) a black sun filter on my railhead if I have 5 points kicking around somewhere. It does help. XV88s have acute senses at least.

I think this list will keep you in business. Hope you like it!

Hmmm.... lol
i think i have a very different play style to most of you....

i preffer alot less broadsides, more fw, less devilfish, more HH's....

if i were you, id drop some broadsides, get more fws, i like to have 9 in every squad with 1 shas'ui, (drone controller), gun drone + marker drone. this keeps it at 150 pts, and they can still get in a devilfish.
marker drone basiclly gives +1 BS to the fire warriors, so they are hitting on 3's. If your planning on fighting space wolves always take a bonding knife.

anyway to the Broadsides. 6 is too much. Keep it at 2-4. think about it realisticly. what 2000 point army is goin to have enogh armour to make 7 railguns worth there points....

Hammerheads should always have disruption pods also.... so i'd drop some stealthsuits (im assuming thats what 'FireKnifves' are) get some fire warriors, drop some broadsides get some kroot, pathfinders, skyrsy, whatever you want.

BigFishy wrote:if i were you, id drop some broadsides, get more fws, i like to have 9 in every squad with 1 shas'ui, (drone controller), gun drone + marker drone. this keeps it at 150 pts, and they can still get in a devilfish.
marker drone basiclly gives +1 BS to the fire warriors, so they are hitting on 3's. If your planning on fighting space wolves always take a bonding knife.

Marker drone - 30pts - waste of points. Instead of using your 9 FWs to shoot, you are better off saving the extra 30 pts for crisis suits who can shoot and protect themself properly.

BigFishy wrote:anyway to the Broadsides. 6 is too much. Keep it at 2-4. think about it realisticly. what 2000 point army is goin to have enogh armour to make 7 railguns worth there points....

Have fun tank hunting when you only have 4 railguns, 2 of which are not TL. What 2k pt army is going to have enough armor for 7 Railguns? Almost every 2k army :-). Or are you playing 5th Ed?

BigFishy wrote:Hammerheads should always have disruption pods also.... so i'd drop some stealthsuits (im assuming thats what 'FireKnifves' are) get some fire warriors, drop some broadsides get some kroot, pathfinders, skyrsy, whatever you want.

FireKnives are Crisis Suits, dude... Or do you actually play Tau when trying to give advice?
And all Tau vehicles should have Pod except for Piranhas.

rmeju wrote:
3 FireKnife (MT) - 186
3 Helios (MT) - 186

12 FWs - 120
12 FWs - 120

8 pathfinders (Fish, disruption pods) - 181
8 pathfinders (Fish, disruption pods) - 181

The reason why you shouldnt spend points on 12 FWs is because if you do that, you need to make sure you use them to shoot. But FWs, unlike Suits, can't shoot perpetually. They are too static. Also, they are also packing only S5. By using the points on FireKnives, you bought something versatile for yourself that can be used to shoot light tanks as well as infantry. That point spend is made useful for almost the whole game.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on FWs. I think they're great, and I think a 30" S5 rapid fire gun for 10 points is great. Save isn't too shabby either. I also don't think FWs mounted in a fish are all that static. I do concede, however, that reasonable minds can disagree on this.

I stick by my recommendations.

rmeju wrote:I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on FWs. I think they're great, and I think a 30" S5 rapid fire gun for 10 points is great. Save isn't too shabby either. I also don't think FWs mounted in a fish are all that static. I do concede, however, that reasonable minds can disagree on this.

I stick by my recommendations.

Not static? Disembark them from devilfish and you are now shooting with a 12" inch range.
10pts for a S5 that wouldnt be shooting every turn? No thanks. You want to shoot every turn? Then no devilfish for you. And guess what? You wouldnt be shooting every turn because you are static, and will fold when the enemy reach you.
10 pts for a S5 that has no duality? No thanks

You are better off consolidating the points on a crisis suit that has duality against light tanks, is shooting every turn, and moves 12" every turn.

So I m sorry, your point is not proven.

Davicus wrote:Not static? Disembark them from devilfish and you are now shooting with a 12" inch range.

12".... plus the 12" that the fish just traveled. I count 24" (maybe even +26" with disembarking), but that's only because I like to count all the inches.

davicus wrote:10pts for a S5 that wouldnt be shooting every turn? No thanks. You want to shoot every turn? Then no devilfish for you.

Well, technically, when the devilfish puts you up close, then you get to shoot twice, so i guess it averages out...

davicus wrote:And guess what? You wouldnt be shooting every turn because you are static,

I don't know what that means. I thought you just said that FWs don't get to shoot when they're not being static (i.e. in the devilfish). If they are static, they have a 30" range. That's good enough to shoot most stuff as it approaches. I don't know. I guess you just lost me on this one.

davicus wrote: and will fold when the enemy reach you.

You mean, just like the fireknives will fold when the enemy reaches them? I don't know what happens to your fireknives in CC, but mine die just like firewarriors. Only they each cost as much as small squad of FWs. And it isn't like the XV8s are fast enough to outrun stuff. They can only hang back for so long.

davicus wrote:10 pts for a S5 that has no duality? No thanks. You are better off consolidating the points on a crisis suit that has duality against light tanks, is shooting every turn, and moves 12" every turn.

Hey, I don't know what you're expecting for 10 points, but all I'm saying is that I think you get what you pay for with FWs. Tau isn't the most up to date codex, and they aren't a forgiving army to use. Firewarriors do one thing well, and that's force armor saves against infantry, big or small.

Fireknives have their place. They can shoot at AV 10 and maybe 11 and not have it be a total waste. But shooting against most infantry, maybe even against terminators (I haven't done the math) I think 18 or 19 Firewarriors can hang in there with a unit of 3 fireknives. No, they won't be killing any tanks, the broadsides and hammerheads will be doing that. Or that helios squad I just mentioned, or the suicide deep strike squad I just mentioned, both of which are far better at killing a tank than any unit of fireknives. And the FWs score. 10 fireknives is way too many, in my opinion. You don't have to take that advice, and neither does the OP if it doesn't fit with his game plan. I was just offering up a suggestion that was solicited to everyone.

I like my mandatory troops to actually be able to do something. That's just me. I understand that some people think they are a waste of 60 points. That is one way to play, and I guess if you plan for that, it won't necessarily mean your list will suck. But if you think there is no possible use for a squad of firewarriors other than waiting to go score on an objective in turn 5+ (which was essentially the gist of your post) then I can comfortably say you are 100% wrong. 100%.

davicus wrote:So I m sorry, your point is not proven.

Is it proven now?

rmeju wrote:12".... plus the 12" that the fish just traveled. I count 24" (maybe even +26" with disembarking), but that's only because I like to count all the inches.

Get close up, rapid fire. And then what? Ok suicide yourself. No Thanks.

rmeju wrote:Well, technically, when the devilfish puts you up close, then you get to shoot twice, so i guess it averages out...

Get up to 12inch close, rapid fire, suicide yourself, and it averages out? Hell no.

rmeju wrote:I don't know what that means. I thought you just said that FWs don't get to shoot when they're not being static (i.e. in the devilfish). If they are static, they have a 30" range. That's good enough to shoot most stuff as it approaches. I don't know. I guess you just lost me on this one.

Shoot twice and die. Unless you tell me you put them on a 5 storey high building, then probably yeah. Otherwise, I m pretty sorry to say that you are only going to shoot twice. After that it's either you try to run away or beg for kroots to bubble wrap you.

rmeju wrote:You mean, just like the fireknives will fold when the enemy reaches them? I don't know what happens to your fireknives in CC, but mine die just like firewarriors. Only they each cost as much as small squad of FWs. And it isn't like the XV8s are fast enough to outrun stuff. They can only hang back for so long.

Suits JSJ. Suits get wrapped, wrapped, and wrapped. Sure you may spend 100 points to wrap your 120 points worth of FWs. But no thanks, doesn't work for me that way.

rmeju wrote:Hey, I don't know what you're expecting for 10 points, but all I'm saying is that I think you get what you pay for with FWs. Tau isn't the most up to date codex, and they aren't a forgiving army to use. Firewarriors do one thing well, and that's force armor saves against infantry, big or small.

Nope, it's 60 points of extra crap. It's either you protect them in fish (because you need them for objectives), or you use them for shooting and leave them out in the open. Your pick.

rmeju wrote:Fireknives have their place. They can shoot at AV 10 and maybe 11 and not have it be a total waste. But shooting against most infantry, maybe even against terminators (I haven't done the math) I think 18 or 19 Firewarriors can hang in there with a unit of 3 fireknives. No, they won't be killing any tanks, the broadsides and hammerheads will be doing that. Or that helios squad I just mentioned, or the suicide deep strike squad I just mentioned, both of which are far better at killing a tank than any unit of fireknives. And the FWs score. 10 fireknives is way too many, in my opinion. You don't have to take that advice, and neither does the OP if it doesn't fit with his game plan. I was just offering up a suggestion that was solicited to everyone.

Just that it was a terrible suggestion. You may need to re evaluate your concept of 40k. Crisis Suits have duality, FWs don't. And duality is the key to being point efficient. It's not about waiting for the RailGuns to pop the transport, and then the FWs come in and shoot the infantry. Doesn't work that way, unfortunately :-).
Also, more FWs means less plasma, less anti heavy infantry. Your list relies heavily on the Helios to do the job, which IMO is a terrible idea. And 24" plasma 12" FB means turn 1 it is doing nothing. AGain - point efficiency.

rmeju wrote:I like my mandatory troops to actually be able to do something. That's just me. I understand that some people think they are a waste of 60 points. That is one way to play, and I guess if you plan for that, it won't necessarily mean your list will suck.

Anyway I look at it, it sucks. Ok plan for? Plan for what?
(1) YOu face a Chimera spam list. First turn, your FWs sit there do nothing, just when you thought 30" rifles rock. Nvm, say you pray that your RailGuns don't just immobilized or weapon destroy transports, but instead wrecks them. God answers your prayer, still you only have a 30" threat range, instead of 42" on the suits. Guards easily deploy out of your 30" threat range.
(2) Again, lets assume your FWs HAS something to shoot at. Opponent is reaching your line. Run your FWs into the taxi fish and give up shooting? Or kroots to bubble wrap a 120 pts unit, which they themself cost about 100+ pts?

rmeju wrote:Is it proven now?

You mean proving your flaws, or?

Blank wrote:Elite
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-226
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-226
3 FireKnife Suits, 1 TEAM LEADER w/ HW DC, 2 Shield Drones, bonded-226

Drop the drones.

Davicus, you really only managed to say two things in there. That firewarriors die without kroot support, and that firewarriors don't have more than one kind of target to shoot at, either because of their "low" strength, or because of their "short" range.

To the first point: Firewarriors automatically die as soon as they get out of the fish.

Problem 1: I don't know what you shoot at 48 times with S5/BS5 and it still lives, but nothing I shoot at is left to charge them.

Problem 2: You assume the need for kroot to put space in between the fire warriors and the enemy. Why you wouldn't just use the devilfish and the accompanying drones to do that? Deployed properly, the firewarriors are all wrapped up by 2 fish and 4 drones, and shoot under the devilfish at whatever was nearby. If they're shooting at something they're APing, then just alter the deployment so that no cover save is granted to the enemy. Less need to put physical barriers in between in that kind of a case because you'll really be mowing down the target.
NOTE: It's important to note here that if you're not APing, then that means the enemy has at least a 4+ armor, so you don't really care if you grant them 4+ cover for shooting over the drones or under the devilfish. I know an expert like you already knows that, but I thought I'd throw it in there for the OP, who indicated he is new.

Problem 3: Even assuming that the firewarriors only get to do their trick once (something I utterly disagree with, but I'll address it since you seem quite stuck on it) they get to shoot FORTY-EIGHT TIMES! I guarantee your XV8s won't put out that many shots, or wounds, during the entire game. If they live (and I think they will, if the technique is properly used) then they get to do it again. Then the XV8s won't ever even get close.

In short, the tactic is perfectly valid, but probably requires careful planning in the movement phase to pull it off, but the exact same thing could be said for the rest of our army, including (especially) XV8s. Our movement phase is the most important phase for most of our good units.

I guess that takes care of your first four comments.

To the OP: There are excellent, detailed explanations of this "fish of fury" tactic out there which include diagrams of how to properly deploy. Just google it and you'll find some. They even include ways to do it with only one sqaud and one devilfish, although that can even get more tricky. This is not necessary to use in a Tau army, but I like it, and recommend you give it a try sometime.

2. Regarding "duality" I don't think you're hearing me. Massed fire warriors kill literally everything with a toughness value of 8 or less. About the only infantry I won't shoot them at are terminators and maybe plague marines, and nob bikers with FNP, unless these units are understrength. Monstrous creatures are ok (unless maybe they have 2+ armor) because you only need to wound them 3-4 times. MEQ get eaten up by weight of fire. Same with most bikers. GEQ die in droves. There are only a very few select troops that can stand up to FW squads rapid firing. You can even shoot them at AV 10, which is especially funny for squadrons or open topped transports. Normally shooty units are only good against certain types of infantry. But the fire warriors have 3 things that make them different, and thus able to shoot at more:
1. Relatively high Strength
2. Relatively high volume of fire (low points per S5 shot...no other unit in the game gets 24 S5 shots for 120 points)
3. Ability to bump up their BS

Taken together this makes them different than most other shooty units, which often are lacking in one or more of those areas, and way better than most other troops.

In summary: Firewarriors do have "duality". They shouldn't be shooting at most vehicles, but that doesn't make them good for only one thing.

A couple of other things I think are worth pointing out:

Your chimera spam list examply is kind of funny, since that is the thing that fireknives are literally the worst at killing (of things it is even possible for them to kill). I guess you probably do need 10 fireknives if you're hoping to kill a chimera with missile pods. And then you go on to tell me how efficiently you are using your points by spending 186 points on a squad that will be shooting a couple of S7 missiles at the guardsmen that fall out?? Really? Well, actually, you're spending 286+ points doing that because you're using your kroot to bubble wrap them.

Your assumption about anything that FWs can shoot at then being in range is also way, way off.

Problem 1: If the FWs are static (I never use mine like this, but I'll just use the example) then they have a 30" range. That is literally the longest range of any basic gun in the game. Even Dark Eldar, which I also play, can't charge 30". At best they get 12" raider move, 2" disembark, 6" fleet (if they're lucky), and 6" charge. That's 26". So even in this most basic example, your assumption is provably wrong. It's even more wrong when you consider that DE are WAY faster than most other armies, which aren't even close to that range. If the DE rolled up the 22" (because they failed to get within charge range) then the FWs can annhialate them with rapid fire. They could even shoot down the raider. Easily. It's AV10 and open topped. Ork trukks too.

Problem 2: In a fish of fury tactic, where the FWs dump out of the devilfish and then shoot, the ememy troopers will BOTH not be in range of charging you (bacause you put the fish in between you and them) AND they are within rapidfire range. Not to mention that the only reason they are that close is because you put them there on purpose. So, maybe your FWs have get get in a devilfish when the enemy gets close, but my FWs get out and start shooting.

Problem 3: Your scenario about the guard easily deploying out of range uses a non-representative example to say that there is no use for a FW squad. Sure, guard might like to stay near their own table edge, just like us. Most, armies, however, don't like to do that. With guard, it might make more sense to deploy your FW a little farther forward. If they're static, then the 30" + ~12" of forward deployment will allow you to just about reach the opposite table edge. So my advice in that kind of scenario, I guess, is don't use the same tactics against guard that you would against armies that like to move toward you. That's just common sense though. Should I go running through all the codexes now and find specific units that fireknives are either poorly suited for shooting, or aren't very points efficient for killing, or can we all just accept that not every unit is good and efficient at killing all other units?

You also say that helios are a terrible suggestion, yet they are FAR better at killing both tanks and heavy infantry than are fireknives, with the exception being light tanks (and only then if they are far away, which frankly isn't always the case). In the heavy infantry role, frankly missile pods don't do squat, and can even make your shooting WORSE because of wound allocation.

Example: You shoot a squad of three terminators (I just use this for ease of explanation) with one fireknife within 12". The termies have one "normal" guy, one heavy weapon, and one sergeant. You hit will all four shots: two plasma, two missile. Everything wounds (again, this is all just for demonstration). The opposing player, if he's not an idiot, will allocate BOTH plasma shots to one normal terminator, and one missile shot each to the other ones. The one termie then has to make his invuln save, the other two get to make their armor saves. You would have literally been better off NOT firing the missile pod.
Again, I know you're an expert and already know this stuff, but I thought the OP might benefit from this, since it is an important drawback of the fireknife when shooting terminators and other heavy infantry, or even MEQ for that matter. You won't be having that problem with Helios suits, trust me.

Summary: Once again (or should I say still) you are wrong to say that the only reasonable way to spend ~650 points on 10 XV8s in a 2,000 point Tau army is to buy 9 fireknives and a fireknife commander. There are other combinations, and like it or not, if they are used properly they work great. You are also still wrong to say that firewarriors are automatically a waste of points. It is ok, of course, to treat them that way. It is one strategy, and a valid one, to keep them parked on an objective somewhere in a fish and use them only for scoring. But for the points efficiency you seem to think is so important, you spend at least 145 points on a squad that literally does nothing until the game is over. How points efficient is that?

rmeju wrote:Davicus, you really only managed to say two things in there. That firewarriors die without kroot support, and that firewarriors don't have more than one kind of target to shoot at, either because of their "low" strength, or because of their "short" range.

To the first point: Firewarriors automatically die as soon as they get out of the fish.

Problem 1: I don't know what you shoot at 48 times with S5/BS5 and it still lives, but nothing I shoot at is left to charge them.

Using Marines - the most common example - 48 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 4 dead marines. So I don't know what you are trying to kill in A TURN. Please mathhammer next time before you try too hard.
If you are advocating markerlights on 12 FWs each, then please don't. Because a squad of 3 FireKnife gives higher rate of return from the markerlight counters (go mathhammer if you need to).

rmeju wrote:Problem 2: You assume the need for kroot to put space in between the fire warriors and the enemy. Why you wouldn't just use the devilfish and the accompanying drones to do that? Deployed properly, the firewarriors are all wrapped up by 2 fish and 4 drones, and shoot under the devilfish at whatever was nearby.

2 Fish and 4 drones wraps 24 FireWarriors in the middle of nowhere??? Really? Draw it and surprise us please.

rmeju wrote:Problem 3: Even assuming that the firewarriors only get to do their trick once (something I utterly disagree with, but I'll address it since you seem quite stuck on it) they get to shoot FORTY-EIGHT TIMES! I guarantee your XV8s won't put out that many shots, or wounds, during the entire game. If they live (and I think they will, if the technique is properly used) then they get to do it again. Then the XV8s won't ever even get close.

So 4 dead marines seem so impressive to you? Now, let me awe you.
2 squads of 3 FireKnifes rapid, 12 plasma shots, 6 hits, 6 dead Marines. 12 Missile shots, 6 hits, 2 dead Marines. TOtal - 8 dead Marines. Of course, they are more expensive, but be glad they are not dying the same turn they do this awesome stuff.

rmeju wrote:In short, the tactic is perfectly valid, but probably requires careful planning in the movement phase to pull it off, but the exact same thing could be said for the rest of our army, including (especially) XV8s. Our movement phase is the most important phase for most of our good units.

Planning to fire off 48shots that only kills 4 Marines and then die? Awesome. You are better off not planning.

rmeju wrote:I guess that takes care of your first four comments.

Sort of, only that I need to define "take care" differently now

rmeju wrote:2. Regarding "duality" I don't think you're hearing me. Massed fire warriors kill literally everything with a toughness value of 8 or less.

LOL, PROVE to me with your mathhammer PLEASE. Or you can continue pretending 48 Pulse Rilfle shots kill lots of stuff.

rmeju wrote:In summary: Firewarriors do have "duality". They shouldn't be shooting at most vehicles, but that doesn't make them good for only one thing.

And that duality is? Killing things with a wide variety of toughness but not killing enough, like 4 dead marines with 48 shots? Kid, start picking up some mathhammering skills, seriously.

rmeju wrote:Your chimera spam list examply is kind of funny, since that is the thing that fireknives are literally the worst at killing (of things it is even possible for them to kill). I guess you probably do need 10 fireknives if you're hoping to kill a chimera with missile pods. And then you go on to tell me how efficiently you are using your points by spending 186 points on a squad that will be shooting a couple of S7 missiles at the guardsmen that fall out?? Really? Well, actually, you're spending 286+ points doing that because you're using your kroot to bubble wrap them.

You know what? S7 against AV12 beats S5 sitting ducks doing nothing. Or maybe you are thinking if I m needing 5s to glance, 6s to pen, then I m better off be sitting ducks. Ok, then FACEPALM.

rmeju wrote:Your assumption about anything that FWs can shoot at then being in range is also way, way off.

Problem 1: If the FWs are static (I never use mine like this, but I'll just use the example) then they have a 30" range. That is literally the longest range of any basic gun in the game.

Except that 30inch don't do anything to a shooty army like IG, orks maybe. Or maybe you are playing on 4 by 4s. Maybe...

rmeju wrote:Problem 2: In a fish of fury tactic, where the FWs dump out of the devilfish and then shoot, the ememy troopers will BOTH not be in range of charging you (bacause you put the fish in between you and them) AND they are within rapidfire range. Not to mention that the only reason they are that close is because you put them there on purpose. So, maybe your FWs have get get in a devilfish when the enemy gets close, but my FWs get out and start shooting.

Turn 1 move 2 fishes up, disembark 24 FWs, 48 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 4 dead Marines. Next turn reembark, run away. Turn 3 rinse and repeat.
That sounds awesome to you?

rmeju wrote:Problem 3: Your scenario about the guard easily deploying out of range uses a non-representative example to say that there is no use for a FW squad. Sure, guard might like to stay near their own table edge, just like us. Most, armies, however, don't like to do that. With guard, it might make more sense to deploy your FW a little farther forward. If they're static, then the 30" + ~12" of forward deployment will allow you to just about reach the opposite table edge. So my advice in that kind of scenario, I guess, is don't use the same tactics against guard that you would against armies that like to move toward you. That's just common sense though. Should I go running through all the codexes now and find specific units that fireknives are either poorly suited for shooting, or aren't very points efficient for killing, or can we all just accept that not every unit is good and efficient at killing all other units?

Spend 2 bucks, purchase a measuring tape, and measure 30" from the frontline of your spearhead deployment zone to opponent's corner. I shant insult your intelligence by giving you the answer.
DOW deployment - answer obvious.
Pitched battle depoyment - depending on who starts first - If the opponent starts 2nd, same problem arises as he reacts to your deployment.
But all in all, I m pretty sure 90% of the competitive lists out there are mech up on turn 1. Have fun glancing 4-8 rhinos (with 48 shots, 24 hits, 6 glances), or be sitting ducks against AV12s.

rmeju wrote:You also say that helios are a terrible suggestion, yet they are FAR better at killing both tanks and heavy infantry than are fireknives, with the exception being light tanks (and only then if they are far away, which frankly isn't always the case). In the heavy infantry role, frankly missile pods don't do squat, and can even make your shooting WORSE because of wound allocation.

Only problem with it being their range. I love Helios for the reasons you have given, but turn 1 (or even 2) they are almost always doing nothing. That's poor efficiency.

rmeju wrote:Again, I know you're an expert and already know this stuff, but I thought the OP might benefit from this, since it is an important drawback of the fireknife when shooting terminators and other heavy infantry, or even MEQ for that matter. You won't be having that problem with Helios suits, trust me.

And this will be the ONLY reason you take Helios Suits. I bring a balance list to tournaments, and I want to make sure (as far as possible) the whole of my army is doing something right from turn 1.

rmeju wrote:Summary: Once again (or should I say still) you are wrong to say that the only reasonable way to spend ~650 points on 10 XV8s in a 2,000 point Tau army is to buy 9 fireknives and a fireknife commander. There are other combinations, and like it or not, if they are used properly they work great. You are also still wrong to say that firewarriors are automatically a waste of points. It is ok, of course, to treat them that way. It is one strategy, and a valid one, to keep them parked on an objective somewhere in a fish and use them only for scoring. But for the points efficiency you seem to think is so important, you spend at least 145 points on a squad that literally does nothing until the game is over. How points efficient is that?

You spent 120 points to do something that is inefficient. I spent less points (60 points) to do LESS of the same inefficient stuff, and throw the 60 pts somewhere else to do the more efficient stuff. That's the difference It is like buying less of a mandatory junk bond, but investing more in a blue chip to generate higher investment returns. Only difference is you spent twice the amount to generate junk bond returns, while I generate half your junk bond returns, and better returns somewhere else.

rmeju & Davicus:
You both realize you've totally hijacked the thread to bicker over FWs and their worth.
And, yee gods, it's not like we haven't seen this same squabble in a tactics forum every couple months, eh?

If I were a MOD, this would be shut down.

Brothererekose wrote:rmeju & Davicus:
You both realize you've totally hijacked the thread to bicker over FWs and their worth.
And, yee gods, it's not like we haven't seen this same squabble in a tactics forum every couple months, eh?

If I were a MOD, this would be shut down.

1) There are always people who are still slow to understand the basic concepts.
2) Telling people the truth is not squabbling. I call that teaching people the basics.
3) Are you the Mod?

Man, it smells like troll in here.

*leaving*

Brothererekose wrote:Man, it smells like troll in here.

*leaving*

And it looks like the troll (YOU) is leaving.
Leave something constructive (related to Tau) if you want to post next time. Otherwise, you are better off leaving :-)

A moderator wrote:Let's all stick to the point, shall we?

hahaha oops : P Just looked in the codex anrealized what an arse i sounded like when i said what are fireknives :S But in my deffence, i only ever call them crisis suits.... 4 railgus is probobly slighly too little, but 6 is fine. the other anti armour comes from crisis suits with fusion blaters. deep stike behid them and you have 1-3 strength 8 ap 1 meltas hitting them. You might to give them targgeting arrays though, so you hit more often...

Problem 3: Even assuming that the firewarriors only get to do their trick once (something I utterly disagree with, but I'll address it since you seem quite stuck on it) they get to shoot FORTY-EIGHT TIMES! I guarantee your XV8s won't put out that many shots, or wounds, during the entire game. If they live (and I think they will, if the technique is properly used) then they get to do it again. Then the XV8s won't ever even get close.So 4 dead marines seem so impressive to you? Now, let me awe you.
2 squads of 3 FireKnifes rapid, 12 plasma shots, 6 hits, 6 dead Marines. 12 Missile shots, 6 hits, 2 dead Marines. TOtal - 8 dead Marines. Of course, they are more expensive, but be glad they are not dying the same turn they do this awesome stuff.

48 Pulse Rifle Shots- 40 Hits, 26.6 Wounds, 8.8 dead space marines. That beats the fireknives. And the with the devilfish and the drones joining in that is an entire squad going down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is assuming BS-5 on the firewarriors but if you dont have that then you dont FoF

@ Chocolate: Thank you for doing the math right. Although we should compare with BS5 suits to be fair

1. At 25"-36" = 6 shots, 5 hits, 4.15 wounds, 1.4 kills
2. At 12"-24" = 3 plasma and 6 missile, 2.5 hits and 5 hits respectively. 2.1 kills and 1.4 kills, respectively = 3.5 kills
3. At 12" or less = 6 plasma and 6 missile, 5 hits and 5 hits, 4.2 kills and 1.4 kills = 5.6 kills

So even at their best they are only doing a comparable job for the points. Also, as noted above, when you have one weapon that can AP, and one that can't, it alllows your opponent to take all his good saves on his good models, and pile all the bad ones onto his regular guys, which sucks, because it makes each kill relatively more expensive in points and time, and allows the good model to continue to exist for longer, shooting its missile or whatever it does, which is going to hurt, which is hard to valuate. With FWs (or helios for that matter) the actual kills will spread evenly to their intended targets much more often, although outlier statistics and the dice gods may of course come calling.

Davicus likes all of his stuff shooting the whole game. I don't disagree that this is a valid plan. But I have found that both armies I play (Dark Eldar and Tau) highly reward thoughtful movement phases and not always jumping at the first target that presents itself. Yeah, I might have to wait for my helios suits to strike, but it isn't like they aren't softening up squads at 30" with the plasma, and once they are in their sweet spot, nothing is better. In short, I think that as long as your railguns (and a *reasonable* amount of missiles) are firing from turn one, and stopping the advance of enemy stuff (that means stun/immob/destroy) the other stuff can pick apart the enemy at the appropriate time. Missile pods can help because they have a long enough range and can hurt AV11, so they're acceptable for shooting rhinos and their equivalent, and great for trukks, raiders, light walkers, etc.. To some extent, this lets your railguns worry about the big stuff while still being able to halt the advance of transports. I personally just think 10 MPs is overkill. Apparently I'm not allowed to think that without being a noob.

Also, I find that the role of pathfinders changes as the game progresses. Turns 1-2, they need to be improving railgun BS and denying cover to top priority vehicles. Later on, they need to be lighting up infantry squads for destruction. I think that using markerlights on infantry is only a waste if you're doing it at the wrong time.

My philosophy is that by taking units that are a bit more specialized than the FKs (but making sure to take enough variety of specialists that I can take whatever is thrown at me) I achieve my diversity in a different way. This way is harder to execute, but if you do it right, I think the results are better. I guess I was just trying without success to get Davicus to admit that there are other ways to skin the cat. Obviously that isn't going to happen. I've stated my piece, I think the OP would be well served by the advice, but no skin off my nose if he chooses to follow Davicus or his own opinion.

@ Davicus: if you want a diagram on Fish of Fury, they are certainly available on google, as per the above post.

ChocolateGork wrote:48 Pulse Rifle Shots- 40 Hits, 26.6 Wounds, 8.8 dead space marines. That beats the fireknives. And the with the devilfish and the drones joining in that is an entire squad going down.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is assuming BS-5 on the firewarriors but if you dont have that then you dont FoF

You probably weren't following what BS we are at. So there is no need for me to waste time elaborating on your point. Do your comparison right next time

rmeju wrote:@ Chocolate: Thank you for doing the math right. Although we should compare with BS5 suits to be fair
1. At 25"-36" = 6 shots, 5 hits, 4.15 wounds, 1.4 kills
2. At 12"-24" = 3 plasma and 6 missile, 2.5 hits and 5 hits respectively. 2.1 kills and 1.4 kills, respectively = 3.5 kills
3. At 12" or less = 6 plasma and 6 missile, 5 hits and 5 hits, 4.2 kills and 1.4 kills = 5.6 kills

So even at their best they are only doing a comparable job for the points.

(1) Squad of 3 FireKnifes - 5.6 kills. Squad of 12 FWs (albeit slightly cheaper) - 4.4 kills.
(2) FWs is going to die the next turn (and I m sorry, you havent' been able to convince me how FWs are not going to die after rapid firing, using your said tactic).
(3) Commander Shas EL is always attached to the squad of fireknife to maximise ML efficiency. Attaching ShasEl to FW squad don't give you the same efficiency, less so if the commander is going to die in CC with the FWs the next turn.

You call that COMPARABLE? LOL, re evaluate how you play 40k then.

rmeju wrote:Davicus likes all of his stuff shooting the whole game. I don't disagree that this is a valid plan. But I have found that both armies I play (Dark Eldar and Tau) highly reward thoughtful movement phases and not always jumping at the first target that presents itself. Yeah, I might have to wait for my helios suits to strike, but it isn't like they aren't softening up squads at 30" with the plasma, and once they are in their sweet spot, nothing is better. In short, I think that as long as your railguns (and a *reasonable* amount of missiles) are firing from turn one, and stopping the advance of enemy stuff (that means stun/immob/destroy) the other stuff can pick apart the enemy at the appropriate time. Missile pods can help because they have a long enough range and can hurt AV11, so they're acceptable for shooting rhinos and their equivalent, and great for trukks, raiders, light walkers, etc.. To some extent, this lets your railguns worry about the big stuff while still being able to halt the advance of transports. I personally just think 10 MPs is overkill. Apparently I'm not allowed to think that without being a noob.

Your list has only 1 set of 3 Missile Pods for anti light tank, the rest of the burden on your railguns. I don't see how you are going to do a good job hindering opponent's mobility, while your Helios suits do nothing for the time being. If 10 MP is overkill at 2k points, you are probably playing noobs. Were you at NovaCon or have seen lists at the NovaCon?

rmeju wrote:Also, I find that the role of pathfinders changes as the game progresses. Turns 1-2, they need to be improving railgun BS and denying cover to top priority vehicles. Later on, they need to be lighting up infantry squads for destruction. I think that using markerlights on infantry is only a waste if you're doing it at the wrong time.

And bingo. If my ML can be better used on a squad of FireKnife (+ShasEl) to generate higher rates of return, I m almost never going to waste it on a squad of FWs (even at 12 strong, they don't generate as much return). That's proper leveraging.

rmeju wrote:My philosophy is that by taking units that are a bit more specialized than the FKs (but making sure to take enough variety of specialists that I can take whatever is thrown at me) I achieve my diversity in a different way. This way is harder to execute, but if you do it right, I think the results are better. I guess I was just trying without success to get Davicus to admit that there are other ways to skin the cat. Obviously that isn't going to happen. I've stated my piece, I think the OP would be well served by the advice, but no skin off my nose if he chooses to follow Davicus or his own opinion.

LOL, i m pretty sure I would have never placed that well in tournaments if I had followed your philosophy.
And on to your point above :-
(1) Specialized units (e.g Helios in your list) - Play against horde/mech orks and suddenly the efficiency of your Helios reduces to almost junk (nah, don't tell me you use FB to pop wagon within 12 inches).
(2) Taking 3 squads of FireKnives makes sure they are at their maximum efficiency (the range contributes alot to this efficiency) NO MATTER what army you are face with. That is the key to making a balanced, competitive list. They may not be as efficient as Helios suits in taking down TEQ/MEG (of course), but they are most efficient against the greatest variety of stuff you see on the table, and utilizes this efficiency for the longest duration throughout the 5-7 turns of the game.

rmeju wrote:@ Davicus: if you want a diagram on Fish of Fury, they are certainly available on google, as per the above post.

Whatever I know about FOF tells me that whatever you have claimed are simply fallacies. Show me your version of the diagram if you want to prove your point.

ChocolateGork wrote:48 Pulse Rifle Shots- 40 Hits, 26.6 Wounds, 8.8 dead space marines. That beats the fireknives. And the with the devilfish and the drones joining in that is an entire squad going down.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is assuming BS-5 on the firewarriors but if you dont have that then you dont FoF

You probably weren't following what BS we are at. So there is no need for me to waste time elaborating on your point. Do your comparison right next time

My comparison is fine. Especially seeing your assuming the space marines you are firing at aren't in cover. You always assume the enemy has a cover save in 5th. So to get the stats you are pointing to for fire-knives you need to spend marker-light points. So why isnt fair that the fire-warriors get points for the purpose of this debate.
And firing that amount of shots at orks who don't have cover you get 26 kills. Then the devil-fishes kill the rest of the mob.
Can the Fire knives do that?
And by laying out the devil fish and the drones you can get a 18-20 inch barricade in front of your warriors Most infantry will have a very hard time getting around that.

ChocolateGork wrote:My comparison is fine. Especially seeing your assuming the space marines you are firing at aren't in cover. You always assume the enemy has a cover save in 5th. So to get the stats you are pointing to for fire-knives you need to spend marker-light points. So why isnt fair that the fire-warriors get points for the purpose of this debate.

(1) Making sure the enemy squad do not get a cover is my job as a proficient general, by setting up proper kill zone. You then take the right units to do the job for you.
(2) Assuming units/MEQ/TEQ units get cover ALL the time would make ALL armor ignoring weapons in 40k the most inefficient weapons. This should not be the way you build your list. Your worry as a general should be to make sure you get your opponent out in the open. The units/models you select in your army are simply your tools for executing that.

ChocolateGork wrote:And firing that amount of shots at orks who don't have cover you get 26 kills. Then the devil-fishes kill the rest of the mob.
Can the Fire knives do that?

And there can be no doubt that Pulse Rifles are more point efficient for bringing down hordes than using FireKives (much like the Chinese analogy of using Bull's Knife to kill a Chicken). But they lack duality. If I know I am facing horde orks all the time in tournaments, you can be sure I ll be bringing loads of burst cannons, stealth suits, or FWs. But competitive environment doesn't work that way.
You know what? By reading your comment above, I am almost sure you either (1) didn't understand my concept above about overall efficiency/duality, or (2) you didnt read it at all.

ChocolateGork wrote:And by laying out the devil fish and the drones you can get a 18-20 inch barricade in front of your warriors Most infantry will have a very hard time getting around that.

18 inch and you are not rapid firing. Or do you not know the rapid firing range?

And its the job of an effective general to keep your units in cover. With a quarter of the board covered in mostly 4+ terrain. And a lot of this area terrain you will unavoidably have your enemy in cover a large portion of the game. (If facing a competent opponent). When the fire knives maneuver to deny cover. They put themselves in increasing amounts of danger and to amount of maneuvering is going to get a squad to jump out of cover if they don't want to.

But we did see that fire-knives are only slightly more effective against MEQ. But against GEQ and orks the fire-warriors are far more effective. So the Firewarriors can take on nearly any opponent and they are still also a scoring unit.

And obviously you will be on the other side of the 18 inch LONG (not wide. its only 4-5 inches wide) barrier shooting under your devilfish.

ChocolateGork wrote:And its the job of an effective general to keep your units in cover. With a quarter of the board covered in mostly 4+ terrain. And a lot of this area terrain you will unavoidably have your enemy in cover a large portion of the game. (If facing a competent opponent).

Now to determine whether you are a competent player, do you even understand what I mean by kill zones? Explain. Because if you don't (which is what I suspect - the moment you make this comment), there is no pt continuing my argument along this line.

And you know what? Assuming you are correct - units are perpetually in cover in 40k. That makes ALL armour negating weapons unless in 40k. The issue will now be extended to Marines, IG, Eldar - not only Tau/FireKnives anymore.

ChocolateGork wrote:When the fire knives maneuver to deny cover. They put themselves in increasing amounts of danger and to amount of maneuvering is going to get a squad to jump out of cover if they don't want to.

You don't deny cover by moving out the Fireknives, you deny cover by first setting up kill zones against your opponent. Again, the concept of kill zones, only if you understand.

ChocolateGork wrote:But we did see that fire-knives are only slightly more effective against MEQ. But against GEQ and orks the fire-warriors are far more effective. So the Firewarriors can take on nearly any opponent and they are still also a scoring unit.

LOL, GEQ and orks fall under the same spectrum when you would discuss about the concept of duality. Seriously, do you even understand duality? Just asking. Because the moment you said "But against GEQ and orks the fire-warriors are far more effective." when arguing for duality of the FWs, I almost fell off my chair.
Also, i have showed in point form why I don't call that COMPARABLE (the effectiveness against MEQ that is). Don't be lazy. Scroll up and read.

ChocolateGork wrote:And obviously you will be on the other side of the 18 inch LONG (not wide. its only 4-5 inches wide) barrier shooting under your devilfish.

18 inches away but not on the other side of the 18 inch? I don't think anyone can understand you unless you phrase yourself properly (or draw what you mean).
If you mean (I m merely random guessing) setting up an 18 inch long Devilfish wall, I m pretty sure EVEN footslogging (not to mention most armies are on transport) squads will reach your FWs from either side of the end of the wall.
Either that, or you are putting your precious transport (the Devilfish) within melta range (giving up the effects of disruption pod - one of the best upgrade in the Tau arsenal), assault range of most armies (namely the IG, Marines, SWs).