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So this came up in a couple tournament games.

Ork mob rule states "Substitute. . . for their normal Ld value"

So what happens when a PBS tried to impose their negative modifier on the orks.

A.) The PBS uses their power, the orks Ld 7 drops down to 1, the orks use mob rule & bring it back up to X.
---This was argued that the power happens, affects Ld then the orks choose which number to use, the modified 7 or the number of boys.

B.) The orks choose to use mob rule, their ld becomes X & then the PBS power takes effect.
---This was argued because of the wording stating "Normal"

There is no GW FaQ (We share steleks view on the INAT) & it was ruled in favor of option A. I feel, after reading the rules over several times, that B is the proper call. What say you all?

edited for don_mondo

Well, it is in the INAT as B......................

IG.47D.03 – Q: If a unit is able to use a different Ld value via a special rule (such as with Ork‟s „Mob Rule‟ or Space Marine‟s „Rites of Battle‟), how does „Weaken Resolve‟ function in these situations?
A: „Weaken Resolve‟ continually modifies the unit‟s Ld for the entire player turn, so even if the unit utilizes the Ld characteristic from a different source, this new value is still reduced [clarification].

We don't use the INAT. Several of us share steleks view of it & that's a whole different debate.

I would say it effects the unit, regardless of what ldrship they use.

A) their Ld is dropped; mob rule substitutes the # of orks for their Ld.

More than 10 orks and it no longer matters unless their is a Wierdboy or they get mindwar-ed(or similar).

But at any rate they "may choose to use the number of models as Ld value" this means it is not a constant effect that always ocurs, only when the choice to do so is made.

I do not like the INATs validation on their stance; mainly because it would mean abilities to use certain HQ's Leadership values for tests(Rites of Battle) would somehow also be effected by that reasoning.

Ahhh, but you said there was no FAQ on it, and there is. Sure, you can choose not to accept it, but that's (as you said), a whole different story.

With that out of the way, I still believe it is B. Whewther you consider it to be an actual change to their stat line or a negative modifier that they must apply to any tests, doesn't matter. For the duration of the IG player's turn, WR is in effect and lowers it by the number of psykers in the squad.

However, I do disagree with it affecting LD from another source, as Kel mentions.

While not an airtight argument in any sense, my general feeling on this is the following:

Regardless of status as an actual "modifier," abilities like Weaken Resolve effect a change on a unit's leadership value at a given time. Mob Rule essentially "replaces" the characteristic for the unit. So we play it as "Mob rule grants a certain Ld to the unit (say 10), then when Weaken Resolve is used, it applies a modifier to that value as normal."

This solution (imo) is fair to both players, as both effects are in play, as opposed to the other option where only the Ork rules matter.

Obviously there are arguments for the reverse, but this is just the way we play.

It is their Ld that is reduced though, not a modifier to rolls. Their Ld is 7 so can be reduced to 2 by 5 or more psykers in the PBS; now when it comes time to take a test a unit with 3 or more boyz may substitute the # of boyz for their normal Ld(now modified to 2) and have a higher value than what was modified by the PBS.

don_mondo wrote:Ahhh, but you said there was no FAQ on it, and there is.

The INAT is not one of the accepted official rules sources for this forum. So as far as discussion here is concerned, it's only at all relevant if you are actually choosing to use it.

Kommissar Kel wrote: now when it comes time to take a test a unit with 3 or more boyz may substitute the # of boyz for their normal Ld(now modified to 2)..

Mob rule doesn't allow you to swap the modified Leadership value... just their normal Leadership.

Their Leadership Value becomes the size of the mob... and then modifiers would apply as normal, because modifiers are applied to the unit's Leadership, which in this case is the number of Boyz in the mob.

insaniak: that moves the Mob rule vs PBS into a "sliding scale" though; you do not automatically replace the mobs normal Ld; you may choose to do so. In the event that you have a mob of 10 orks, and a 6-man squad of PBS(5 Psykers and overseer) hits them with WR their Ld is now 2, they go to take a Ld Test(of any sort, for whatever reason) and choose to replace their normal Ld of 7 with the number of boyz(10) and then you would need to apply the -5 for WR to their new Ld value.

Although this somewhat makes sense it breaks the spirit of the rule; changing it from "We gots enuff boyz let's get 'em ladz" to a sudden forgetting how to count(which is not too difficult to imagine for orks).

What I am saying is their normal Ld is 7; the number of Orks can be substituted for that normal Ld, WR effects their Ld which is not necessarily the # of orks when the power is used. you could inverse this when WR is used as well; choosing to use the # of orks as their Ld when WR is used, then choosing not to use that when a Ld test is called for, reverting back to 10.

C:
Roll off
Both abilities have equal right to have the final say in the units leadership value. You can not have two leadership values. By RAW, when two abilities create an impasse, roll for it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:insaniak: that moves the Mob rule vs PBS into a "sliding scale" though; you do not automatically replace the mobs normal Ld; you may choose to do so. In the event that you have a mob of 10 orks, and a 6-man squad of PBS(5 Psykers and overseer) hits them with WR their Ld is now 2, they go to take a Ld Test(of any sort, for whatever reason) and choose to replace their normal Ld of 7 with the number of boyz(10) and then you would need to apply the -5 for WR to their new Ld value.

Although this somewhat makes sense it breaks the spirit of the rule; changing it from "We gots enuff boyz let's get 'em ladz" to a sudden forgetting how to count(which is not too difficult to imagine for orks).

What I am saying is their normal Ld is 7; the number of Orks can be substituted for that normal Ld, WR effects their Ld which is not necessarily the # of orks when the power is used. you could inverse this when WR is used as well; choosing to use the # of orks as their Ld when WR is used, then choosing not to use that when a Ld test is called for, reverting back to 10.

So Kel... Are you saying that it can be argued that a 10 man Boyz squad's leadership is 5 after 6-man squad of PBS(5 Psykers and overseer) hits them with WR??

I need to see the text of how WR works, because the guard players hammers that WR on my Nob squads....

Kommissar Kel wrote:insaniak: that moves the Mob rule vs PBS into a "sliding scale" though; you do not automatically replace the mobs normal Ld; you may choose to do so. In the event that you have a mob of 10 orks, and a 6-man squad of PBS(5 Psykers and overseer) hits them with WR their Ld is now 2, they go to take a Ld Test(of any sort, for whatever reason) and choose to replace their normal Ld of 7 with the number of boyz(10) and then you would need to apply the -5 for WR to their new Ld value.

Although this somewhat makes sense it breaks the spirit of the rule; changing it from "We gots enuff boyz let's get 'em ladz" to a sudden forgetting how to count(which is not too difficult to imagine for orks).

What I am saying is their normal Ld is 7; the number of Orks can be substituted for that normal Ld, WR effects their Ld which is not necessarily the # of orks when the power is used. you could inverse this when WR is used as well; choosing to use the # of orks as their Ld when WR is used, then choosing not to use that when a Ld test is called for, reverting back to 10.

The only accurate response to this is 'bollocks mate.' Even if you swap your Leadership for the number of Orks, that number is then immediately reduced by WR. You don't get to try and game your way around the power with some weird order-of-operations gimmick.

Whembly: Yes according to what the others are saying.

Corrode: So what you are saying is that no matter the Ld being used after getting hit with WR; the WR modifier will apply(including, as I said before, Rites of Battle or the Creed/Kell combination for orders)?

Which would Make the PSA a continuous form of attack lasting until its prescribed termination; re-effecting the unit depending on what Ld value they wish to attempt the use of.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Although this somewhat makes sense it breaks the spirit of the rule; changing it from "We gots enuff boyz let's get 'em ladz" to a sudden forgetting how to count(which is not too difficult to imagine for orks).

The 'spirit of the rule' is to grant Orks a higher Leadership when there are more of them. Which it still does if you apply modifiers as normal.

The Mob rule allows you to substitute the number of boys for the normal Ld of the mob. It has no effect whatsoever on modifiers, because the rules don't say that it has any such effect. So it makes no difference whether you determine the Boyz' Ld by looking at their Leadership stat, using the number of Boyz in place of the Ld stat, or by reading the entrails of a sacred goat. That Ld will still be modified by anything that modifies Ld, just as it is for anyone else who gets to substitute a different value for their Leadership.

you mean I sacrificed that goat for nothing? At the least being covered in chicken blood had a psychological effect on my opponent... as did the nudity.

Back on topic:

As I said earlier timing would be everything in this; the modifier is applied, then the Base Ld gets changed due to another rule.

If the modifier gets to alter every new instance of Ld from the unit in question does that mean that were a player to then Assault the Orks effected, and lose some Psykers(but still win the combat) that the modifier gets reduced as well?

Kommissar Kel wrote:A) their Ld is dropped; mob rule substitutes the # of orks for their Ld.

More than 10 orks and it no longer matters unless their is a Wierdboy or they get mindwar-ed(or similar).

But at any rate they "may choose to use the number of models as Ld value" this means it is not a constant effect that always ocurs, only when the choice to do so is made.

I do not like the INATs validation on their stance; mainly because it would mean abilities to use certain HQ's Leadership values for tests(Rites of Battle) would somehow also be effected by that reasoning.

Of course Rites of Battle is affected by Ld modifiers against the unit!


The first thing to understand is that units do not have a Ld value, only models do. But for morale tests (or Ld checks against the unit) you must establish the unit's Ld value. The rules tell us to find the highest Ld value of the models in the unit and that is the defacto 'unit Ld' for the resulting morale/Ld test.

Some special rules allow models outside of the unit to contribute their Ld value to the unit (or in the case of the Ork mob rule, generate that Ld value based on the number of models in the unit), but that Ld value is still then applied as the 'unit Ld' for the resulting morale/Ld test and therefore subject to any Ld modifiers that apply to that test.

So yes, if a SM unit lost combat by 4 casualties and had to take a morale check at -4, they can still use the Commander's Rites of Battle Ld to make their unit Ld 10, but any modifiers to their unit's Ld would still apply.

Rites of Battle is NOT the Book of St. Lucius (which specifies that the bearer's unmodified Ld is used).


So here is the order to resolve the Ork mob rule vs. 'Weaken Resolve'.


1) Weaken Resolve is cast on the Ork mob and continually reduces the unit's Ld value (remember that units do not have a Ld value except when taking a morale/Ld test for the unit).
2) The Ork mob is forced to take a morale check.
3) It therefore must determine the mob's Ld value in order to take the morale check. The player therefore takes the highest Ld value of the models in the mob OR uses the number of Orks in the mob as the unit's Ld value.
4) However, Weaken Resolve continually reduces the UNIT's Ld value, so therefore whatever Ld value is established for the mob is then reduced by Weaken Resolve.
5) Use the unit's reduced Ld value (along with any other Ld modifiers applying to the test) for the morale test.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
If the modifier gets to alter every new instance of Ld from the unit in question does that mean that were a player to then Assault the Orks effected, and lose some Psykers(but still win the combat) that the modifier gets reduced as well?

IMHO, absolutely. I personally don't see anything that makes Weaken Resolve a 'snapshot' effect. It affects the unit for the turn and their unit's Ld is reduced by the number of psykers in the PBS. So if the PBS manages to get some of its psykers killed that turn I would absolutely play that the effect of Weaken Resolve would be...uh...weakened!

Unless the mob is 11+ strong, in which case the unit is fearless and unaffected.

Kommissar Kel wrote:you mean I sacrificed that goat for nothing? At the least being covered in chicken blood had a psychological effect on my opponent... as did the nudity.

So, you killed a goat and chicken blood came out

Tekeino wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:you mean I sacrificed that goat for nothing? At the least being covered in chicken blood had a psychological effect on my opponent... as did the nudity.

So, you killed a goat and chicken blood came out

No, you're supposed to wear chicken blood when you sacrifice your goat...

sheesh, the n00bz these days.

WEll, they are fearless so dont fall back - however hit them with a S8 AP2 flamer (neural shredder) and whether they are <ld5 or not really does matter. >

TY Yakface; your post cleared up any issue I had with the concept(by actually stating that it effects any Ld test).

Also fearless doesn't matter for DE Orbs that wound Based on Ld values.

And Mind war, and a plethora of other tests/situations.

Just to throw one last thing in here, obsviously the Ld of the mob is capped at 10. But couldnt weaken resolve be used against the number before modification?

Let me give an example. Say there are 15 boys in a unit. Then the PBS (8 strong) casts weaken resolve. Dependant n the order in which you resolve "modifiers", i.e. the reduction of the boys Ld to 10 (as part of their own mob rule), or the weaken resolve first - this could mean the orks have a Ld of 2 or 7 - quite a difference.

Or am I completely wrong?

Given Ld can never go above 10, oop is irrelevant - it reaches 10 and stops.