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So if creed grants a unit the scouts rule.... can yarrick join that unit and outflank with them?

GG

Since the whole unit is granted scout by telion then yes since yarrick becomes part of the unit he is covered by telion's special rule.

No; Scouts has a * by it in the USRs; meaning it is lost by units/ICs when an IC without it joins them. Also an IC with it loses it when joining a unit without it.

Leo: Telion grants the effects of Stealth, not Scouts. SM Scouts already have the Scouts USR.

My mistake the OP is talking about Creed not telion. And Creed does grant scout to a selected unit. So as far as I can tell it would work. Creed can grant scout to a unit during deployment so as long as you declare that Yarrick is joining the unit before you pick it for the scout ability it should work.

No, it doesn't work. It's still a unit with an attacdhed IC.

I respectfully disagree on this point. I acknowledge that the IC + unit does not equal the same thing as the base unit but in this instance there is a difference. Once the character joins a unit it becomes a new type of unit but it is still a unit all the same. So if Yarrick joins a unit of vetern guardsmen then it is no longer a unit of vetern guardsmen but it is still a unit of Yarrick + guardsmen. Creed's rule says to choose an infantry unit during deployment and give that unit the Scout USR. As long as Yarrick is an infantry unit and so is the unit he is joining then the new unit is still an infantry unit. Therefore Creed's special ability still functions.

The thing is though that Creed allows you to issue 1 unit the Scouts USR during deployment.

you deploy units 1 at a time, so during your deployment of either yarrick or the unit you issue 1 of those units Scouts; then you deploy the other and have Yarrick Attached to the unit, now you have either an IC without Scouts or a unit without scouts therefore losing Scouts.

Preparing Reserves works the same way so you could not put the unit in reserves giving them Scouts and declaring they shall outflank, then attach Yarrick as they would no longer be capable of outflanking.

An IC can begin the game attached to a unit before deployment (BRB p48 first bullet point on the right). So I'm afraid that I have to disagree with your analysis of the situation.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:An IC can begin the game attached to a unit before deployment (BRB p48 first bullet point on the right). So I'm afraid that I have to disagree with your analysis of the situation.

So then what leo is saying is...

A: Yarrick joins the unit
B: Creed gives scout to this unit using tactical genius.
C: So this unit(including Yarrick) now has scouts.

GG

Also you don't deploy units one at a time anymore. You jsut deploy them.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:An IC can begin the game attached to a unit before deployment (BRB p48 first bullet point on the right). So I'm afraid that I have to disagree with your analysis of the situation.

You missed the second half of that sentence. They may begin the game with a unit by being deployed with them. Until they are deployed they are two units. Thus only one can gain the special rule.

The IC is not part of the unit UNTIL deployed.

That bullet point says by being deployed with them, that makes the attachment during deployment.: you deploy them, then deploy the IC and the IC is joined.

Look to the Preparing Reserves which is the only place that an IC can be attached before a unit Deploys; this also tells us that the unit can be held in reserve and an IC can be attached to it, you still have to make these declarations during deployment and the IC still has to be attached to the unit after declaring the unit is to be held in reserves(so during deployment after declaring what the unit will do and thus whether the unit gets scouts, if the unit doesn't and the IC does he is still joining a unit without therefore no scouts effect/outflank).

Melchiour wrote:You missed the second half of that sentence. They may begin the game with a unit by being deployed with them. Until they are deployed they are two units. Thus only one can gain the special rule.

The IC is not part of the unit UNTIL deployed.

The special rule only says "during deployment" (referring to the phase and not any particular unit) it doesn't have a time restriction. Therefore you can deploy any and/or all of your units and then make the decision as the last act of your deployment [phase].

You have to designate who gets the outflank ability during deployment. At that time the IC is not part of the unit because he must be deployed with it to be a part of it. Outflanking is not part of deployment. It is reserves.

The discussion is about "Scout" not "outflanking" so I don't understand what you're saying.

**Whispers** psst; Scouts unlock "outflank" and is pretty much the most common use for Tactical Genius.

My fault, I was thinking purely of using the Scout ability of the initial move after the deployment phase. The rules say during deployment so I guess by your thought process an IC can never join a unit in an outflanking manuever unless he starts with Scout. I would say that since you have to declare an IC is with a unit before you roll for reserves and therefore is deployed at the same time (all as one unit) and would still be eligible to outflank with the designated unit.

"Deployment" is a very specific pre-game phase; this is when you put your units, one at a time onto the table, or into reserves.

When you are putting units into reserves and you put an IC into reserves this is when you attach the IC to the unit. You cannot, for example place an assault squad in reserves, declare that they will deepstrike, then place a SM Captain with Jump pack in reserves and say nothing further; then when the squad rolls up available from reserves claim the Captain is going to join them and that they will still be deepstriking.

It is all in the Preparing reserves rules page 94 BRB.

kell...I think we all know that.

The question revolves around, is there some "order" of joining that takes place. I.E. if the IC joins the unit before the tactical genius takes place, then the whole unit would be granted scout and therefore be allowed to outflank.

I don't recall seeing any "order" of joining in the rulebook..I could be mistaken though.

GG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually looking at page 94 in the brb, it indicates that the unit that is joined by the IC is counted as a single unit. So once the IC joins, Creed can give them scouts.

Easy Peasy.

GG

that all depends on how you look at the phrase "During deployment";

The Ic cannot join the unit until it is deployed with the unit; Units cannot Join ICs so the unit must be deployed before the IC. During the units deployment would be during deployment so would necessitate the declaration of Creeds' tactical genius rule because any time after that is not during the unit's deployment, the unit has already deployed.

During the ICs deployment with the unit the IC is not joined to the unit until it is deployed with the unit(per that bullet point on page 48) so if the IC is given Scouts during deployment, and is then deployed with a unit the unit does not have scouts and so the IC loses scouts.

kel that is not what page 94 says. I'll quote it, I guess..

"First he must specify to his opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will be rolled for and arrive together, or not in which case they will count as a separate unit when rolling fro reserves."

So you declare that your IC is joining a unit. Now they count as one unit, not two separate units. So now that they are one unit, they all get the scouts rule when tactical genius is applied.

GG

no first you put the unit in reserve, then you put the IC in reserve, then you combine the IC and Unit; you quote even clearly states this: "First he must specify to his opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit"

The IC must be left in reserve, the same as the unit before they are declared to be joined. You have at this point already put both in reserve as their parts of Deployment.

If the units deployment is to go into reserve(and have creed give them scouts so they can then declare that they are Outflanking) and then the IC who also spent his deployment getting left in reserve, is then joined as a Unit to declare they will be outflanking, the unit(or the IC) will have already been given scouts before getting joined and declaring Outflank.

Sorry KK you haven't proved your point to my satisfaction.

GG

If he's in reserve and part of a unit with a character that gives the unit he joins the Scouts USR I'm having a hard time understanding why he wouldn't be able to do this.

(Yarrick + Unit)Tactical Genius = One unit with Scouts.

You're telling me that CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED can sneak a Warhound in from the side but not one measly Commissar? I have to disagree.

Ok. As i read it...

OPTION ONE ----------
I'm placing my veteran squad in reserve...
I'm also using Tactical Genius on the veterans so they have the USR:Scout (declare the use of Tactical Genius when you are deploying the target unit)
As they have the USR:Scout and are in reserve, they will be arriving by Outflanking.

Next unit...

I'm placing my IC in reserve...
He will join the veterans, and outflank with them...
(opponent) IC does not have scout, therefore cannot outflank with the veterans

OPTION TWO ----------
I'm placing my veteran squad in reserve...
I'm also using Tactical Genius on the veterans so they have the USR:Scout (declare the use of Tactical Genius when you are deploying the target unit)

Next unit...

I'm placing my IC in reserve...
He will join the veterans.
As they have the USR:Scout and are in reserve, they will be arriving by Outflanking.
(opponent) IC does not have scout, therefore cannot outflank with the veterans

----------

Essentially...
The IC must attach to the squad, so the squad must deploy first (before the IC)
And when deploying the squad, you must declare that the squad will recieve scout.
Upon deploying the squad with scout, you may deploy your IC and attach him to a unit.
However the IC does NOT have scout, so the unit will loose it.

If your thinking you can deploy the unit, then deploy the IC and join him to the squad, then give them scout, you are wrong
The IC must attach to the squad, so the squad must deploy first (before the IC)
Upon deploying the squad, you may deploy your IC and attach him to a unit.
You CANNOT give the unit scout as the unit has already been deployed.
You can give scout to the IC as you are currently deploying him.
However you loose the scout USR when you join the unit.

It hasn't deployed if its in reserve and waiting to Outflank though.

Two ways of doing this:

1) During "normal" deployment: the unit and IC are NOT attached to eachother until the game begins (as the key phrase is "may begin the game...." and therefore you cannot Scout with them both; Scout is before the game begins.

2) In reserves.

You Reserves instead of deploying normally. WHen you declare the non-IC unit is going into reserves you have to declare whether that unit is Outflanking or arriving normally. So it MUST have Scouts at this point - you cannot go back and allow it to Outflank AFTER joining an IC to it.

So the IC would be able to join the unit, but that would force it to arrive normally, as the IC does not have Scout.

Roll a D6, on a 1-3 Scout is not conferred to Yarrick, 4-6 it is

Will someone please point to the point in the rules that says that Creed must declare his special rule right after the chosen unit is placed either in reserves or on the board. I'll tell you that you can't. He can choose whichever unit he wants during the deployment phase. I can place 3 units on the board and then go back and say that the 1st unit placed is the one I'm choosing. There is no time reference other than which phase this special rule is used. So I don't see the problem with the following:
During the deployment phase I start by placing my Veterns on the board. Then I place a unit of CCS. After that I place Yarrick with the Veterns. I then declare that those Vets + Yarrick have scout via Tactical Genius. I then go on to place the rest of my units either in reserve or on the board. All of this is within the rules. Therefore Yarrick and the Vets have scout.
Or I place my unit of Vets in reserve. I then declare that Yarrick will deploy with the Vets. After that I place my CCS on the board. I can then tell my opponent that the Vet squad with Yarrick will be outflanking via the Scout USR. I can then complete deploying my army. Again all of this is perfectly legal per the rules. And again the Vets + Yarrick have scout.

Sure thing: "During Deployment"

Deployment is an action, it is what you are doing; so you must declare it when you are deploying your unit(on table or into reserves), once you have placed your unit onto the table you have deployed, it is no longer during deployment of that unit.