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 skoffs wrote:
I'm talking 1 blast/4-5 gauss ratio, here.
(as mentioned before, blast goes over guys clumped up behind cover for maximum hits, gauss goes toward everything else)

Looking at your tactic above, I don't understand the reason behind taking Gauss.

I mean, if your opponent's are clumping units behind cover, wouldn't multiple S6 templates be better?

I read a cute tactic the other day.

Allies of Convenience count as Enemies in all aspects except that you control them. This is why Zahndrekh can steal Special Rules from your Tau allies, which has been discussed in this thread before. A solid tactic if you're bringing Tau anyway.

Deathmarks have Ethereal Interception, which lets them Deep Strike as soon as an enemy does, regardless of turn.

Disregarding CtA allies (since it's awkward and most tourneys don't allow them anyway), we have Tau, Ork, and CSM (or Renegades if FW is allowed) that we can ally in. CSM, if you can bring FW, can have a Dreadclaw Drop Pod, which, while more expensive than the Imperial version and has no Inertial Guidance, still comes down on Turn 1 and is a Flyer to boot.

Deathmarks count the Drop Pod as an enemy, so when it automatically comes in via Deep Strike on Turn 1, you can DS your Deathmarks anywhere on the board. If you take a Decurion, you can have up to 10 units of Deathmarks if you just take them alongside the Reclamation Legion, points restricting, of course.

A baseline Allied Detachment of CSM with an Unmarked, unupgraded Sorcerer and a 5 man CSM unit with Dreadclaw is 235 points. That gives you an ObSec unit, an ObSec hovering flyer, and a Psyker (who, if he rolls on Malefic Daemonology, prevents the vehicle from eating your dudes).

So you can null deploy, bring down a Drop Pod and X-number of Deathmarks on Turn 1, all of whom are wounding on 2+ because of Deep Striking, and are 4+ RP because Decurion.



Competitively, obviously it's not great or a tournament winner. But, it is neat and allows Necrons to easily take a Null Deployment list that has a great Alpha Strike against a lot of armies.

Just one problem - those deathmarks are indeed wounding on a 2+... but are only allowed to shoot the stuff that arrived from deep strike that turn.

So, unless you want to shoot up your own allies, you can't actually use their 'wounds on 2+' ability.

 vipoid wrote:
Just one problem - those deathmarks are indeed wounding on a 2+... but are only allowed to shoot the stuff that arrived from deep strike that turn.

So, unless you want to shoot up your own allies, you can't actually use their 'wounds on 2+' ability.

That's only if you're "Intercepting", aka shooting in the movement phase. They can shoot in the shooting phase as normal.

Ah, you'e right. My mistake.

 vipoid wrote:
Just one problem - those deathmarks are indeed wounding on a 2+... but are only allowed to shoot the stuff that arrived from deep strike that turn.

So, unless you want to shoot up your own allies, you can't actually use their 'wounds on 2+' ability.

Correction

"Hunters of hyperspace: During the player turn in which this unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, all shooting attacks made by the Deathmarks in this unit will wound on To Wound rolls of 2+ regardless of the victim's Toughness"

They still get their 2+ to wound that turn, they just don't shoot during the end of the movement phase. Have a drop pod with melta guns in it and a Deathmark unit with a D.Lord with a gauntlet of the conflagerate and you more than likely just took out two units turn one.

This could be a legit tactic in tournies if necrons could get CTA allies or use a marine army with necron allies

 vipoid wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
I'm talking 1 blast/4-5 gauss ratio, here.
(as mentioned before, blast goes over guys clumped up behind cover for maximum hits, gauss goes toward everything else)

Looking at your tactic above, I don't understand the reason behind taking Gauss.

I mean, if your opponent's are clumping units behind cover, wouldn't multiple S6 templates be better?

Versatility.
But as mentioned before, this will create a jack-of-all-trades effect where it'll be effective against a wider range of enemies, but they won't excel at taking out any of them... then again, I use Tomb Blades as harassment units/objective grabbers, so this suits my purposes perfectly.
(though, granted, maybe 2 blast/3-4 gauss split might be better).

Requizen wrote:
I read a cute tactic the other day.

Allies of Convenience count as Enemies in all aspects except that you control them. This is why Zahndrekh can steal Special Rules from your Tau allies, which has been discussed in this thread before. A solid tactic if you're bringing Tau anyway.

Deathmarks have Ethereal Interception, which lets them Deep Strike as soon as an enemy does, regardless of turn.

Disregarding CtA allies (since it's awkward and most tourneys don't allow them anyway), we have Tau, Ork, and CSM (or Renegades if FW is allowed) that we can ally in. CSM, if you can bring FW, can have a Dreadclaw Drop Pod, which, while more expensive than the Imperial version and has no Inertial Guidance, still comes down on Turn 1 and is a Flyer to boot.

Deathmarks count the Drop Pod as an enemy, so when it automatically comes in via Deep Strike on Turn 1, you can DS your Deathmarks anywhere on the board. If you take a Decurion, you can have up to 10 units of Deathmarks if you just take them alongside the Reclamation Legion, points restricting, of course.

A baseline Allied Detachment of CSM with an Unmarked, unupgraded Sorcerer and a 5 man CSM unit with Dreadclaw is 235 points. That gives you an ObSec unit, an ObSec hovering flyer, and a Psyker (who, if he rolls on Malefic Daemonology, prevents the vehicle from eating your dudes).

So you can null deploy, bring down a Drop Pod and X-number of Deathmarks on Turn 1, all of whom are wounding on 2+ because of Deep Striking, and are 4+ RP because Decurion.



Competitively, obviously it's not great or a tournament winner. But, it is neat and allows Necrons to easily take a Null Deployment list that has a great Alpha Strike against a lot of armies.

Okay. This is incredibly genius. Your can outfit the other deep strikers as anti AV, and go for a table as soon as possible.

I'm in a real bind and hope you guys can help me decide what to run this weekend. I am playing with five mates over a weekend at Wayland Games; I know there will be a Ravenwing list (Black Knights and Support Formation spam), Daemons, and 3 other IoM armies (most likely battle company or pod lists). We're playing maelstrom missions, 2000 pts.

My list recently was a full-on lychstar decurion, like so:

Nemesor Zahndrek
10 immortals (NS)
7 lychguard (swords, shields)
10 warriors (GA)
10 warriors (GA)
3 tomb blades (SV, N)
3 tomb blades (SV, N)
royal court:
Orikan
Obyron
Overlord (conflagrator, PS, sword)
canoptek harvest:
6 wraiths (3 whip coils)
3 scarabs
1 spyder

Basically, the star is just way too slow, and despite catching and butchering a unit of black knights I felt it wasn't worth the huge points investment. I'm running a gauntlet of the conflagrator, because I need some way to deal with Ravenwing (and it seems good against marine-heavy meta).

Which leads me to this new list:

Nemesor zahndrek
5 immortals
5 lychguard (swords/shields)
10 warriors (GA)
10 warriors (GA)
3 tomb blades (SV, N)
3 tomb blades (SV, N)
canoptek harvest:
6 wraiths (3 whipcoils)
3 scarabs
1 spyder
CAD:
Overlord (conflagrator, PS, sword)
10 warriors (NS)
10 warriors (NS)

I feel having the extra night scythe and the obsec warriors will help me grab objectives and add a bit more punch to the list. I was finding in general that I had too few units for maelstrom and struggled to cover enough of the board to hold/contest objectives.

Comments and thoughts would be really welcome. I have a few destroyers, a destroyer lord, a ccb, and two doom scythes/night scythes sitting about so I could change up more if needed. If I can't settle on a list I feel happy with though I might just have to run Filthdar instead...

Does anyone use third party models for their Necrons? I might come into some Puppetswar Arthropod models here soon, and am not sure if they'll work for Wraiths.

I don't, but I have no qualms about doing so in future if I find some nice, cheap alternatives.

Recently though, the only thing I've 'added' to my Necron army is a converted monstrosity that'll be my Triarch Stalker.

So. That new Tau suit.

Necrons traded damage output for survivability in this codex. Compared to every other 7th Edition Codex (Correct me if I'm wrong!) we are undergunned, with no access to D-Weapons outside of a completely random 1/6 roll, no true MC equivalent (Presumably because our RP roles made us plenty durable) and exceedingly few high strength / good ap weapons.

So facing an army with overwatch / interceptor shenanigans and this new ridiculous toy who's D-weapon ignores our RP, how do we fight it?

Looks like mass Gauss, but that's going to be ludicrously stupid trying to get our troops within range, much less rapid fire.

We could spam Sentries but those are extremely expensive comparatively for their damage output and survivability.

I'm really at a loss here.

 Ferros wrote:
So. That new Tau suit.

I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
So. That new Tau suit.

I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.

I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.

I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.

Requizen wrote:

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
So. That new Tau suit.

I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.

I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.

I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.

This guy is right, stomp makes it nearly impossible to count on having more than one turn in assault with a GC/SHV. I've tried conclave of the burning one against a Wraithknight, and no matter how bad he is with his normal attacks, it's the stomp that wipes out the entire squad.

How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight. Big, shooty, not as good in CC, they are very similar, though I guess you do gain more by tying up the Tau suit in assault than the Wraithknight, because it has a lot more guns.

 Doctarro wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
So. That new Tau suit.

I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.

I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.

I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.

This guy is right, stomp makes it nearly impossible to count on having more than one turn in assault with a GC/SHV. I've tried conclave of the burning one against a Wraithknight, and no matter how bad he is with his normal attacks, it's the stomp that wipes out the entire squad.

How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight. Big, shooty, not as good in CC, they are very similar, though I guess you do gain more by tying up the Tau suit in assault than the Wraithknight, because it has a lot more guns.

We don't deal with them. We sit back and watch GCs and SHWs take over the game. Muahahahah.

I finally think I've done enough testing and come through to the other side. Wraiths. It's always been Wraiths.

ITC event can have 1 duplicated formation. 2 Harvests, kitted out with Beamers, taking Shred, should do decently.

Full Wraithtard List

CAD
DLord - Voidreaper, Phase Shifter

Immortals x5
Warriors x10
Warriors x10

Wraiths x6 - Coils
Wraiths x6 - Coils

Canoptek Harvest
Wraiths x6 - Beamers
Spyder
Scarabs x3

Canoptek Harvest
Wraiths x6 - Beamers
Spyder
Scarabs x3

Is it one-note? Yeah. Is it cheesy? Pretty much. But hot dang if it won't murder the heck out of things. I'm even ok slowing down one of the Beamer units with the DLord to give them PE for more chances at ID. There isn't much room to run when you have 24 Wraiths staring at you from across the table.

Points to wiggle, of course. But the idea is, Wraiths are the best competitive unit in the book.

Requizen wrote:

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
So. That new Tau suit.

I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.

I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.

I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.

You make a good point about the stomp, but there is some weird wording in the suit's rules page on FW. If you look under the "special rules" section, you can see that it says "gargantuan creature". Gargantuan creatures obviuosly have stomp, among a host of other special rules. The strange thing is that it then goes on to list all of the gargantuan special rules individually except fnp and stomp. This could easily be a typo one GW's part, or they could be trying to exclude those two rules. RAW, since it's still a gargantuan creature, you could argue that it still benefits from those rules since nothing explicitly says it doesn't get them. But I think that it's ambiguous enough that you should discuss it with your opponent before the game. Anyways, if you ruled the suit doesn't get stomp, I think the conclave could at least hold its own and probably kill the battle suit, which costs around 200 points more. Actually, without stomp, a squad of wraiths with rp like requizen suggested would probably tarpit the suit for the entire game for less than half the cost.

So what makes the escalation LOW choices for necrons obsolete?

Oberron wrote:
So what makes the escalation LOW choices for necrons obsolete?

The Obelisk is good on paper. 100 points more than a monolith for 2 more HP and SHV status. That's not bad. The fire output is pretty good as well, especially if you are allowed to angle and fire 3 guns at one target (though that's still somewhat contested). But, compared to other SHVs, it doesn't have the raw damage output. The "good" non-Walker SHVs are things like Baneblade Variants, the Lynx, etc. Things with big, nasty guns that shoot across the table. In comparison, the Obelisk has some 24" guns that don't have AP values and a sometimes-useful Gravity Pulse. Without a Save and having relatively short range for a SHV, it just doesn't survive that long as long as they have any amount of reliable anti-tank on the field.

The Tesseract Vault is 250 more points for 3 more HP and the Powers of the C'tan. While the random powers are somewhat ok on the Nightbringer, paying 550 points for a single, random power is pretty garbage overall (it does still have Tesla, but with the size it makes it hard to fire them off). It would probably be worth bringing if you could choose the powers, but RNG on a SHV that costs around 1/3 of your army is not ok. It does always suffer the biggest explosion, so you could try to make it a suicide bomb... but that's not exactly a "good" option. Not to mention that most tournaments do the ruling of "every 3 HP is another VP", so the Vault is 3 VPs just if you kill it. That's a lot.

So you have a decent one that's kind of a tougher Monolith with less damage output (on average, the Tesla can do some damage but the S8 AP3 large blast is better against most things), or a very expensive vehicle with a single, randomized shooting attack. The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.

Requizen wrote:
The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.

Tyranid GC are quite crappy.

 Tyran wrote:

Requizen wrote:
The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.

Tyranid GC are quite crappy.

I've seen the Barbed Hierodule work a few times. But yeah, on average, not so much.

Really when people bring LoWs to tournaments, they're bringing Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, or the Lynx (if it's allowed). Maybe Baneblades/Stormswords/whatever if people actually still play IG (which is pretty rare nowadays). Do Ork players use Stompas? Who knows, they're basically all just using Bike lists or Green Tide.

The Obelisk doesn't work in this meta. The Tesseract Vault doubly as much.

How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight.

Wraithknights are manageable with Necrons in my opinion due to their 3+ save and T8 still being a decent target for destroyers, especially ones from the the destroyer formation.

The new tau battlesuit on the other hand is completely immune to str 5 fire, and even if it wasn't it has its 2+ save to stop almost all the damage.

The only real unit which might pose a threat to the supremacy suit imo is wraiths. Their 3++ save protects them from the more dangerous weaponry, and 12 move and rending mean you might reach the target and then have a chance to do some damage.

Do tournaments still rule that Gauss Pylons can only fire snaps at ground targets?
If so, the best we can hope for is a supplement or something that gives us back some semblance of the GC C'tan (not as broken as before, but not as crap as it is now).

Also 600 points of Flayed Ones should be able to kill it, but Flayed Ones never are reaching that thing alive.

 Tyran wrote:
Also 600 points of Flayed Ones should be able to kill it, but Flayed Ones never are reaching that thing alive.

How will they wound it?

Big Blind Bill wrote:

How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight.

Wraithknights are manageable with Necrons in my opinion due to their 3+ save and T8 still being a decent target for destroyers, especially ones from the the destroyer formation.

The new tau battlesuit on the other hand is completely immune to str 5 fire, and even if it wasn't it has its 2+ save to stop almost all the damage.

The only real unit which might pose a threat to the supremacy suit imo is wraiths. Their 3++ save protects them from the more dangerous weaponry, and 12 move and rending mean you might reach the target and then have a chance to do some damage.

I said it before - Wraiths are the power unit in the book, at least in the competitive meta. They're by and far the best unit to bring to tournaments. Fast, durable, Fearless, with Rending and an option for an ID gun. If tourneys continue to allow LoWs and the overall power level of new Codices continue to rise, 4+ units of Wraiths will be pretty common, even moreso than they are now.

skoffs wrote:Do tournaments still rule that Gauss Pylons can only fire snaps at ground targets?
If so, the best we can hope for is a supplement or something that gives us back some semblance of the GC C'tan (not as broken as before, but not as crap as it is now).

That's the only way to rule it, as FW is too lazy to put out a single FAQ in the last like 3 years for anyone not named "Space Marines".

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Also 600 points of Flayed Ones should be able to kill it, but Flayed Ones never are reaching that thing alive.

How will they wound it?

Ups, for some reason I messed shred with rend.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight.

Wraithknights are manageable with Necrons in my opinion due to their 3+ save and T8 still being a decent target for destroyers, especially ones from the the destroyer formation.

The new tau battlesuit on the other hand is completely immune to str 5 fire, and even if it wasn't it has its 2+ save to stop almost all the damage.

The only real unit which might pose a threat to the supremacy suit imo is wraiths. Their 3++ save protects them from the more dangerous weaponry, and 12 move and rending mean you might reach the target and then have a chance to do some damage.

They're immune to str 5 as you say except when that str 5 is Gauss like the case with Destroyers. So they CAN still wound the thing. But with a 2+ save it's unlikely a regular destroyer will manage a wound. Heavy Destroyers will fair better. It's still not a solution though.

I suspect the best solution would be to just not play against that kind of nonsense.