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If you have 5 reavers +1 arena champion (6 reaver models total) can you have 2 cluster caltrop upgrades or just one? If so why?

Believe you can only have one of each special per squad.
So whether a squad of 3 or 10 the limit is one. You can add a grav talon. The only size dependent is the special weapons. 1 per 1-5, 1 for 6-8 and 3 for 9-10.

Its not one per squad, its one per 3 but i dont know if the arena champion can be included in that 3.

The entry says one per 3, so it would be two.


You may find though that some will argue that it should be one, based on the fact that it says one per every three 'Reavers'... and some players will argue that an Arena Champion replaces a Reaver.

To my mind, he's an upgraded Reaver, but still a Reaver for the purposes of upgrades, by virtue of being a member of a Reaver squad.

insaniak wrote:To my mind, he's an upgraded Reaver, but still a Reaver for the purposes of upgrades, by virtue of being a member of a Reaver squad.

That's a dangerous way to go - that allows terminator sergeants to take heavy weapons, Novitiates in honour guard squads to get upgrades, apothecaries in command squads to get upgrades and all sorts of other shenanigans.

Also, I think the wording is significant:

The weapon upgrades specify - for every three models in the squad.
The blade upgrades specify - for every three reavers in the squad.

Your interpretation makes the differentiation redundant.

Unit of five reavers and a champion - can have two weapon upgrades (six models) but only one blade upgrades (only five reavers)

Scott-S6 wrote:

insaniak wrote:To my mind, he's an upgraded Reaver, but still a Reaver for the purposes of upgrades, by virtue of being a member of a Reaver squad.

That's a dangerous way to go - that allows terminator sergeants to take heavy weapons, Novitiates in honour guard squads to get upgrades, apothecaries in command squads to get upgrades and all sorts of other shenanigans.

Also, I think the wording is significant:

The weapon upgrades specify - for every three models in the squad.
The blade upgrades specify - for every three reavers in the squad.

Your interpretation makes the differentiation redundant.

Unit of five reavers and a champion - can have two weapon upgrades (six models) but only one blade upgrades (only five reavers)

I agree with Insaniak's conclusion (although not his reasoning).

GW has shown through its own FAQs that you most definitely follow an 'order of operations' when selecting unit upgrades, for example an Ork Nob being able to upgrade to a Powerklaw before upgrading the unit's slugga/choppas to Shootas.

So there is absolutely nothing stopping you from taking 6 Reavers, upgrading two of them to have Cluster caltrops and THEN upgrading one those models into an Arena Champion (including one of the models that has Cluster Caltrops).


The examples you give of shennanigans that can happen actually don't apply when following the rules in this manner because Terminator Sergeants, Novitiates and Apothecaries are all not upgrades to the unit...they come standard in the unit named differently from the rest of the models in the unit.


I do agree that it makes the wording between the weapons and the blades redundant (every three reavers essentially = every three models in the unit), but it wouldn't be the first time GW has used redundant wording.

Now, they may come back and rule in a DE FAQ that this isn't allowed, but until then I don't see any rule broken if you upgrade the Reaver to carry a Grav-Talon and THEN upgrade him to be the Arena Champion.


AND I really don't have any problem with squad sergeants being the one to get unit upgrades. This is generally a negative for the unit (as it is better to have multiple different models in a unit for casualty removal) and if you want to convert your models in this way, I say go for it!

IMHO, the Imperial Guard codex is an example of how GW needs to write things when they really don't want the same models taking different upgrades. That codex is very specific about different models in a basic platoon squad having to be upgraded (as opposed to making the special weapon guy also the vox-caster guy, for example).

Scott-S6 wrote:That's a dangerous way to go - that allows terminator sergeants to take heavy weapons, Novitiates in honour guard squads to get upgrades, apothecaries in command squads to get upgrades and all sorts of other shenanigans.

None of which I have a problem with...

Your interpretation makes the differentiation redundant.

Indeed it does. And you're assuming the differentiation is deliberate. It's all down to personal opinion at that point.

on most units when the upgrade is 1 per x, y; y is a different name than the Unit's name.

They made a differentiation between how many models are required in the unit for jetbike gun upgrades, and then how many "reavers" are required in the unit for Caltrops/talon.

Right now, since the entire unit is a "Unit of Reavers", they are all reavers; although 1 may also be an "Arena Champion"

I am sure we will get an FAQ on this, but for now it is legal to have 2 Caltrops/Talons for 6 models in the reaver squad.

Just as a note, when I get them, I will be upgrading them with only 1 Caltrop/talon/ 3 regular members, and purchacing a 4th for Champion upgrades(so in order to have 3 Caltrop/talons, I will have a full 10-bike squad; which makes the 10-model unit cap make sense over the 9 "required" for full upgrades).

P.S. For terminators the distinction is clear; they are not a "unit of Terminators" they are a "Terminator Squad", made up of "Terminators" and a "terminator Sergent". Same goes for all the others. Reavers get away with it because they are quite literally all "reavers"; which is unique.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
P.S. For terminators the distinction is clear; they are not a "unit of Terminators" they are a "Terminator Squad", made up of "Terminators" and a "terminator Sergent". Same goes for all the others. Reavers get away with it because they are quite literally all "reavers"; which is unique.

Not unique to the DE codex. The same is true for Kabalite Warriors, Wyches, Hellions, Scourges, etc. So where an option is available for "every 3 models in the squad" it would include all the members of the squad, whether or not any members of the squad have been upgraded.

There is nothing in the Space Marine Codex that would prevent you from putting a cyclone missile launcher on a terminator sergeant.

Also, for SM tac squads, if the squad numbers 10 models they can take a drop pod as a dedicated transport. So the Sergeant is included as "just another member of the squad" like the BRB describes upgrade characters.

1)Note: you said that Unit and individual models names being the same is not unique to the DE dex, then listed off examples... from the DE dex.

However in all cases you listed off the upgrades are 1 per x models, not named members of the units/units name; only reavers have that.

2) Excepting that only "terminators" may take cyclones, and Terminator Sgts are not Terminators; they are however members of a Terminator Squad.

Squad numbers and x models in a squad are different from X "named members"