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Ok need some help on this one as got into a heated argument over it.

6 man squad gets attacked in combat and take 4 rending wounds and 5 normal armour saves, complex unit with different wargear. I apply the 4 rending wounds to two normal models then the rest of the wounds to the others. My opponent says I must put a rending wound on each model instead of stacking them up, p25 says the player controlling the target unit allocates wounds. So can I stack those rending wounds on 2 models or do I have to spread them out? I can't see anything which says I must spread the rending hits out.

Any ideas?

Be more specific on who is in the squad.

So you have 6 models and 9 saves to take (4 rending and 5 normal armor saves) You have it right. You allocate how wounds are placed. With that being said you must place a single wound on each model in the unit first then move on to placing additional wounds.

So 1 rending on model A, 1 rending on model B, Normal save on C, D, E, F. Thus the first set of wounds are placed. Then you would repeat until there are no more wounds. 1 Rending on A and B, and 1 more some where on C,D,E or F depending on need.

Ok it was a 5 man squad with 10 wounds Inc 4 rending. I put 2 rending wounds on each normal assault marine I then put 2 normal wounds on a flamer assault marine, priest and sgt.

Opponent says I must give rending wound each. Rule book says I allocate wounds as I want, doesn't say all must have rending wound.

Am I right what I did? 4 rending wounds on 2 assault marines then 2 normal wounds each on priest, sgt, flamer assault marine.

Thanks

You're correct. The wound allocation process doesn't differentiate between different types of wounds, just different types of models. So you can indeed stack rending or high AP wounds onto specific models, provided there are enough other wounds to keep the allocation of wounds even.

Yes there was enough wounds. Thanks for confirming, thought I was right as nothing says you have to do what my opponent said.

Slightly changing but along the same lines, does the same thing apply to instant death wounds in a unit of all one-wound models?

That is to say, if I have 8 Guardmen, and take 10 wounds, 2 of which are Instant death, the rest saveable (all guardmen are identical), can I stack the two ID wounds on the same guy?

If they're all identical you're going to be rolling for them all as one group anyway, so no, you can't

That does make sense. But then, what about un-identical?

Guard Squad of 7 normal guy and a flamer. 10 wound, 2 are ID. Can I stack the ID wounds onto the flamer?

TheRedArmy wrote:That does make sense. But then, what about un-identical? Guard Squad of 7 normal guy and a flamer. 10 wound, 2 are ID. Can I stack the ID wounds onto the flamer?

Yep.

mercer wrote:Yes there was enough wounds. Thanks for confirming, thought I was right as nothing says you have to do what my opponent said.

Even if there had only been three normal wounds, you'd have been fine.

TheRedArmy wrote:That is to say, if I have 8 Guardmen, and take 10 wounds, 2 of which are Instant death, the rest saveable (all guardmen are identical), can I stack the two ID wounds on the same guy?

You can, yes. Again, the type of wound is irrelevant to wound allocation.

As a side-note, though: Instant Death wounds are not automatically unsavable. You have to fail your save (or have it negated by the AP of the weapon) in order for ID to occur.

Instant death wounds have to be applied to unwounded models, one wound to one model at a time...you cannot put 2 instant death wounds on one model...it is in the rule book...I went through that recently

Shenra wrote:Instant death wounds have to be applied to unwounded models, one wound to one model at a time...you cannot put 2 instant death wounds on one model...it is in the rule book...I went through that recently

Might want to go through it again then, because this is incorrect. You do not have to allocate Instant Death wounds to unwounded models, which is what you are saying. What you have to do is remove unwounded models from within a like group if a like group fails a save against an Instant Death Wound. The best example is Ork Nob Bikers. Five Ork Nob Bikers, all of whom are equipped differently. They take 2 ID wounds and four regular wounds. You can allocate both ID wounds to the same model, wounded or not. The others each take one regular wound. Now you roll for saves. You're getting the allocation and casualty removal steps mixed up.

page 26 of rulebook, last paragraph: "if amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for EACH unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal...this rule is designed to stop players avoiding single wounds by putting them on a model that has suffered instant death anyway."

So if you have 5 ork nob bikers...and you take 2 ID wounds and 4 regular...you would take out 2 models for the ID wounds and then allocate the other 4 amongst the 3 remaining bikers...meaning at least one more will die.

Pretty cut and dry...and I've seen it ruled at tournaments this way too.

INcorrect.

You are missing the line about Complex Units and wound allocation. The line above ONLY applies within the same wound group.

You may have seen it ruled the other way, doesnt make it any less wrong.

All that wording prevents is you from removing an already wounded model in a wound allocation group with several other unwounded models in an effort to mitigate casualties.

Shenra, that line has absolutely zero effect on allocation. So you can indeed allocate both ID wounds to the same model. And if it is flying solo in it's allocation group, then it soaks up both wounds. You're wanting to remove them without saves even, based on your post, seeing that you are removing models before allocation, which comes before saving throws.

shenra ur wrong, what youre saying applies to basic like model units example scarab swarms, it doesnt work on complex ones like kitted nobs, twc etc

Or rather, it does work on complex units, but it applies after wound allocation, not before.

Hey, if I'm wrong that's great news...because I've hated that interpretation. Anyone have a hard page number in the rulebook to support it though, when I tell my local tournament organizer that he's wrong I'll need to show him. That quote is what he showed me to support his answer...and I'm not seeing anything about instant death wound allocation anywhere else.

You won't find a specific rule that says 'Instant Death is applied after wound allocation'... it's simply a by-product of the order of operations.

The wound process goes as follows:
1 - Roll to Hit.
2 - Roll to Wound.
3 - Roll Saves.
4 - Remove Casualties.

Complex units add in an extra step in between 2 and 3, where the wounding hits, before being saved, are allocated to the different models in the unit.

The effect of Instant Death, on the other hand, applies as a part of step 4. You don't determine whether or not a weapon causes ID until all of the saves have been rolled and you come to remove the casualties.

So ID has no effect on Wound Allocation because you are allocating the wounding hits before it is ever considered.

Essentially, always distribute the wounds evenly, but in whatever order you choose, onto the unit and then take saves and casualties group-for-group. If those groups are one model or ten models doesn't matter, do them group-for-group.

The complex units rule section in the rule book is a bit odd, since the standard unit in WH40K IS a complex unit. Units consisting of identical models are the exception.

I may be wrong but rending isnt an ID wound its just a wound from which no armor save may ever be taken...thus invul saves still apply. To expand on that it would boil down to allocating power weapon wounds and normal wounds, which you may apply how you wish in a complex unit.

Invulnerable saves apply unless otherwise stated, regardless of whether the attack is ID or not.

Zonder wrote:I may be wrong but rending isnt an ID wound its just a wound from which no armor save may ever be taken...thus invul saves still apply.

Whether or not a hit from a Rending attack counts as an ID wound would depend on the strength of the hit and the Toughness of the target.

Either way, yes, Invulnerable saves can be taken against Rending attacks. And any applicable save can be taken against an ID wound... Saves are calculated as normal against an ID attack. It's only once you have determined whether or not the wound is saved that you look at whether or not it causes ID.

I realize that ID is a method of Str vs Toughness what I was trying to say is that just because an rending attack rolls a 6 does not make it ID. Because unless its a str 8 rending attack(since he is talking about assault marines with T4) it just counts as a power weapon hit and he can as long as every model in the squad as a wound applied to it the remaining wounds can be applied how he wishes.

And our point is that Instant Death is irrelevant to Wound Allocation.

Instant Death is ONLY important when you come to remove casualties. Not at any point before that.

insaniak wrote:

TheRedArmy wrote:That is to say, if I have 8 Guardmen, and take 10 wounds, 2 of which are Instant death, the rest saveable (all guardmen are identical), can I stack the two ID wounds on the same guy?

You can, yes. Again, the type of wound is irrelevant to wound allocation.

As a side-note, though: Instant Death wounds are not automatically unsavable. You have to fail your save (or have it negated by the AP of the weapon) in order for ID to occur.

Can we agree though that this is incorrect? The way I understand the flow, given the last paragraph of pg 26 that Shenra quoted, as well as the order of events that insaniak posted, would present this situation:

Shenra wrote:page 26 of rulebook, last paragraph: "if amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for EACH unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal...

insaniak wrote:The wound process goes as follows:
1 - Roll to Hit.
2 - Roll to Wound.
3 - Roll Saves.
4 - Remove Casualties.

Steps 1,2 -> 10 wounds, 2 which will be ID.
Step 3 -> Roll 8 saves for non ID wounds, 2 saves for ID wounds.
Step 4 -> ID wounds that weren't saved get allocated to 2 different models, then non-ID wounds get spread around evenly.

I'm just trying to avoid getting confused here, because the conversation is bouncing between mixed and non-mixed units
(Edited to add all quotes and provide some flow)

Allocation always happens before rolling any saves.

The rules for ID and multi-wound models apply during casualty removal, well AFTER allocation, so it is possible to stack ID wounds on the same model when you have complex wound groups.

For example, I have a unit of four Nobs, all with different equipment, creating four groups for wound allocation.
A unit of Sternguard shoots at them using a combination of bolters and combi-meltas.
The SG score two wounds with the combi-meltas, and four wounds with the bolters.
I, as the Ork player, now assign the six wounds evenly among the four orks, however I please. I choose to assign both melta wounds to the same Nob, two bolter wounds to another Nob, and one bolter wound each to the other two nobs.
Each nob rolls saves as appropriate. The single Nob who was assigned both the melta wounds is the only one which can suffer Instant Death, as the wounds cannot carry over between the different wound groups created by giving them all different equipment.

The SM player, in this case, would probably have been better off just shooting the combi-meltas.

Pedro: You're getting the order confused. You assign wounds to models before taking saves, not after. Detailed order of operations are:

1) Attacker roll to hit
2) Attacker roll to wound
3) Defender assign wounds to models
4) Defender roll to save
5) Group unsaved wounds between identical models together
6) Unsaved wounds translate to a Wound lost or a casualty from the group