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Commissar Cain 160pts

WS BS S T W In At Ld Save
5 4 3 3 3 4 3 7 4+/3++

Equipment (Cain): Independent Caharacter, Carapace Armor, Laspistol, Chainsword

Special Rules:

Hero of the Imperium: Any Imperial Guard squad within 6" of Commissar Cain may use Ld10 for any Leadership Tests including Morale, Pinning, and Orders and any squad Cain joins also gains Stubborn. These benefits are not applicable to Cain or Jurgen when unattached to another Imperial Guard squad.

Lucky Bastard: Commissar Cain has survived multiple tyrannid, ork, and chaos invasions as well as escaped from several necron tomb worlds. His keen survival sense grants him a 3+ invulnerable save; this save may be taken even on effects that don't cause wounds and simply remove the character from play by any means.

Legendary Swordsman: Cain has a knack at finding weak spots in any armor or defense regardless of the odds. Due to his prowess and decades of practice with the same chainsword and laspistol, all attacks made by Cain count as having the Rending ability.


Jurgen

WS BS S T W In At Ld Save
3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+

Special Rules: Independent Character

Equipment: Meltagun, Close combat weapon

Psychic Null: Jurgen negates on a 3+ any psychic power targeting him or including in its effect him and/or his squad. In addition, all psykers within 6" reduce their leadership to 8 if higher.

Commissar's Aide: Jurgen is included in Cain's cost. He must deploy and stay within 2" of Cain at all times, including joining Cain when unattached or Cain's squad if he joins one.

Make Haste!: Any non-skimmer vehicle transporting Jurgen becomes fast as Jurgen takes over the wheel. If the ground vehicle is already fast, it instead gains the ability to turboboost exactly as a bike.

Dedicated Transport: Jurgen's ability to "acquire" a transport for his Commissar from the regimental vehicle pool is legendary. Jurgen and Cain may take a Chimera as a dedicated transport. If Forge World rules are allowed in the game, he may instead take a Salamander with the same upgrade options as the chimera.







I pretty much based his abilities off of what he does/has in his later years in the novels. For the cost, i upgraded the commissar lord to carpace armor (80pts), added a veteran guardsmen with meltagun (18pts), and then added more points to make up for his and jurgen's additional abilities. Comments or advice?

I like the rules for Jurgen. I've read those novels, and Make Haste! especially made me chuckle. I'm not sure Turbo-Boosting makes sense, when vehicles would use a Flat Out move.

I'm not so sure about Cain's rules. Stubborn and leadership bonuses don;t make sense for him, really, since he'd fall back if it was advantageous to him, I feel. Plus, Jurgen's odor would probably be a negative to morale. Also, I think the only model in the game with a 2+ invul is a saint. I think a 3+ would be more appropriate. I do think him having rending fits, however.

I think, you should give him some orders, (specify which normal ones he can use, and how many per turn) and maybe give him a special order?

The only models with 2+ invul is: A saint (possibly) any normal sister of battle hero (possibly), any archon (until failed) as well as a named ork (During 1 turn).
However, none of these are permanent. IMO, drop it to 3+, keep the "can be used against anything" maybe give him etrnal warrior OR the ability to turn the first ID wound to a normal one.

Commander Endova wrote:I like the rules for Jurgen. I've read those novels, and Make Haste! especially made me chuckle. I'm not sure Turbo-Boosting makes sense, when vehicles would use a Flat Out move.

I'm not so sure about Cain's rules. Stubborn and leadership bonuses don;t make sense for him, really, since he'd fall back if it was advantageous to him, I feel. Plus, Jurgen's odor would probably be a negative to morale. Also, I think the only model in the game with a 2+ invul is a saint. I think a 3+ would be more appropriate. I do think him having rending fits, however.

I think, you should give him some orders, (specify which normal ones he can use, and how many per turn) and maybe give him a special order?

I think definatly a 2+ invulnerable for his plot armor

EDIT: Also wouldent giving Cain some close combat ability be closer to the books? even if you have to add more points, something along the lines of "Legendary Chainswordsman"

Commander Endova wrote:I like the rules for Jurgen. I've read those novels, and Make Haste! especially made me chuckle. I'm not sure Turbo-Boosting makes sense, when vehicles would use a Flat Out move.

I wanted Jurgen to improve any ground vehicle he drives to go a bit faster so i gave the fast vehicles the ability to turbo boost as that is a 24" move with a 3+ cover save instead of the flat out 18" move. Realistically, i only included it as cain's preferred transport is the salamander which is already fast statwise and wanted to give it a bit of a boost for jurgen specifically. since <1% of people actually own a salamander model, i doubt it'll come into play much.

Commander Endova wrote:
I'm not so sure about Cain's rules. Stubborn and leadership bonuses don;t make sense for him, really, since he'd fall back if it was advantageous to him, I feel. Plus, Jurgen's odor would probably be a negative to morale. Also, I think the only model in the game with a 2+ invul is a saint. I think a 3+ would be more appropriate. I do think him having rending fits, however.

i might have to make it clear but Jurgen and Cain do NOT benefit from the stubborn and leadership rules (which is why they're Ld7 and specifically excluded in the text). When joined to a squad, they inspire the others to feats of greatness and get taken along for the ride so cain doesn't blow his cover as a "hero". bascially, they're ld7 without stubborn unless they join a squad; i think that's sufficiently cowardly!

Commander Endova wrote:
I think, you should give him some orders, (specify which normal ones he can use, and how many per turn) and maybe give him a special order?

Commissars in general don't have orders as they're not technically in the chain of command. If i were to make up a gaunt character, i'd definitely give him some as he's both a commissar and a regimental commander.

Oscarius wrote:The only models with 2+ invul is: A saint (possibly) any normal sister of battle hero (possibly), any archon (until failed) as well as a named ork (During 1 turn).
However, none of these are permanent. IMO, drop it to 3+, keep the "can be used against anything" maybe give him etrnal warrior OR the ability to turn the first ID wound to a normal one.

i thought about that but i frankly think eternal warrior is overused. also, cain has been shown to be mortal and able to be put out of commission by normal attacks that are lucky enough to clip him as he doesn't have the supernatural toughness and ability to shrug off damage like yarrick; he's lucky but ultimately just a normal human. i think the 2+ conveys that but still makes it possible to one shot instakill cain with a bad luck invul save. the 3+ might be a good idea though for game balance and to avoid shear *holy crap, no way would i allow that* factor that a 2+ might engender...

Gibbsey wrote:
I think definatly a 2+ invulnerable for his plot armor

EDIT: Also wouldent giving Cain some close combat ability be closer to the books? even if you have to add more points, something along the lines of "Legendary Chainswordsman"

i did consider a close combat special ability and its why i gave him rending (i know its overused but it seemed appropriate). his weapons are described as nothing special (just a regular chainsword and laspistol that he's used for decades) so i didn't want to add master crafted or a power weapon. the WS5 and 4 attacks (5 on the charge) with rending gives him the ability to wound anything in the game but only on a lucky hit (6 to wound) which is his forte... If you don't mind, i might borrow your title of legendary swordsman as the special rule that gives him rending. the other option is to have his rending hits (and only those that rend) inflict instant death to show how his lucky swordstrikes always seem to decapitate and his lucky pistol shots always go through the eyes of an adversary. that does seem a bit OP though. thoughts?

The lucky bastard rule is a little conflicting to a Vortex missile/grenade. Its rules state that any unit caught under the template is GONE, no allowance of ANY form of save short of gargantuan creatures and vehicles with structure points... In all honesty, I don't see how being lucky would save you from being ripped up/into the warp...

Footsloggin wrote:The lucky bastard rule is a little conflicting to a Vortex missile/grenade. Its rules state that any unit caught under the template is GONE, no allowance of ANY form of save short of gargantuan creatures and vehicles with structure points... In all honesty, I don't see how being lucky would save you from being ripped up/into the warp...

it's a relatively confined effect.. he could save himself by jumping out of the way of that small blast. it's meant to give him a chance of surviving pretty much anything. just like the cain in the novels, he's lucky and has a chance of surviving anything but not necessarily the massive offensive power you'd expect from a special special character.

SMALL?!?!?!? The grenade, fine, but an APOCALYPTIC blast template is massive! The rule itself states that there are no if, an's, or buts, the model is gone... I guess you could make it applicable to any situation, but it just seems unfathomable that anything would survive...

I have a big issue with the 2+ psychic ignoring stuff. Nothing, I repeat, nothing has anything that comes close. Sisters ignore powers on 5+ and they are dedicated Anti-Psykers. Psychic Hoods don't even off those odds on Ld10 against Psychic Battle Squads (Ld9).

Drop it to 5 or so, or up his cost big time - maybe 190.

TheRedArmy wrote:I have a big issue with the 2+ psychic ignoring stuff. Nothing, I repeat, nothing has anything that comes close. Sisters ignore powers on 5+ and they are dedicated Anti-Psykers. Psychic Hoods don't even off those odds on Ld10 against Psychic Battle Squads (Ld9).

Drop it to 5 or so, or up his cost big time - maybe 190.

He's a Null, a blank. Psychers will literally KILL THEMSELVES to escape one. Even Deamonhosts are affected by them.

How about all psychers in a 12 inch radius do not get to use psychic powers (including force weapons)?

TheRedArmy wrote:I have a big issue with the 2+ psychic ignoring stuff. Nothing, I repeat, nothing has anything that comes close. Sisters ignore powers on 5+ and they are dedicated Anti-Psykers. Psychic Hoods don't even off those odds on Ld10 against Psychic Battle Squads (Ld9).

Drop it to 5 or so, or up his cost big time - maybe 190.

Demonhunter null rods costs 20pts and simply negate (without a roll) any psychic power targeting the bear or unit he's with AND count as a power weapon. Blessing of the Blood God from chaos demons gives a 2+ save vs psychic powers for 5-10pts depending on the model gaining the upgrade. Space wolf rune priests negate ALL psychic powers within 24" on a 4+ while their special character does so on a 3+. the precedent exists and has existed for a long time.

Have you read the Cain books? if anything, i should be giving Jurgen a culexus type rule where psykers are at lower leadership to boot (the culexus assassin is basically a trained null of the variety jurgen is). the 2+ (just like the save) seems to be a focal point so i may change it to a 3+ to reduce the "WTF??" factor and add a limited culexus Ld rule instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Footsloggin wrote:SMALL?!?!?!? The grenade, fine, but an APOCALYPTIC blast template is massive! The rule itself states that there are no if, an's, or buts, the model is gone... I guess you could make it applicable to any situation, but it just seems unfathomable that anything would survive...

i definitely see where you're coming from but 40k is like that in general. standing behind a string of barbed wire has a 1 in 6 chance of stopping a superheavy baneblade main cannon tank round... that's 40k for you. the fluff is abstracted to form a rule that is hopefully clear yet concise if all goes well and sometimes it takes a bit of suspension of disbelief. also, i think you're confusing several different rules in apoc. most apoc blast template weapons (7 or 10") are not strength D and still generally require a str vs t roll as well as allow a cover save. Strength D is what i think you're referring to and is a small minority of apoc weapons. If my cain acts a bit wierd in apoc, i'm ok with that as most normal 40k stuff interacts wierdly with the apoc expansion rules. i'm mainly trying to work out a version of cain that works in normal 40k. as a side note, technically jurgen's driving rule as written makes a transport titan like an emperor a fast vehicle if he's in it. i could add another explicit exception for walkers but adding it would make the rule (IMO) a bit too wordy and confusing for a situation that is incredibly rare to begin with since nothing that i know of in normal 40k is a walker and transport.

Nah, I think a 2+ "dispel" of psycic powers is fine. Like you said, there is a host of other things with an equal effect. Witchhunters also got retinue members which have the EXACT same effect as Jurgen.

The more I think about it a 2++ could work. He is not stubborn unless he's a squad, is only t3 and is not very good in combat.

I think instead of a 3+ Invulnerable save he should have the ability to transfer any hits he take to anyone within 2". now that's something more likely. maybe Jurgan can just count as a squad member for determining if he can attack (so he doesn't need to be in base contact) as I don't recall him ever fighting in Hand to Hand... if you don't count when he punched a grot off the side of a Trukk.

also why does Jurgan have a Laspistol?

I got other ideas but they're not as approprite. but considering I can get a Veteran Squad with Camo-Cloaks then one of my ideas is pointless, but Cain himself, I suppose Jurgan as well, should have the Stealth Rule.

Lotet wrote:I think instead of a 3+ Invulnerable save he should have the ability to transfer any hits he take to anyone within 2". now that's something more likely. maybe Jurgan can just count as a squad member for determining if he can attack (so he doesn't need to be in base contact) as I don't recall him ever fighting in Hand to Hand... if you don't count when he punched a grot off the side of a Trukk.

also why does Jurgan have a Laspistol?

I got other ideas but they're not as approprite. but considering I can get a Veteran Squad with Camo-Cloaks then one of my ideas is pointless, but Cain himself, I suppose Jurgan as well, should have the Stealth Rule.

(for those who dont know they are hidden on a trukk with jurgen driving covered up)

*Jurgen punches grot*

Cain: "What was that about?"
Jurgen:"He wanted a ride and i said no"

Oscarius wrote:Nah, I think a 2+ "dispel" of psycic powers is fine. Like you said, there is a host of other things with an equal effect. Witchhunters also got retinue members which have the EXACT same effect as Jurgen.

The more I think about it a 2++ could work. He is not stubborn unless he's a squad, is only t3 and is not very good in combat.

i totally forgot about that one and its actually the most appropriate since the pariah listed there is what jurgen is supposed to be (a null). each pariah costs 7pts and one gives the squad a 4+ vs psychic powers and two of them give a 2+. i think 3+ is a nice balance in that jurgen is better than a no name generic pariah but not so much better that he is the equal of two of them. thanks for pointing that out!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lotet wrote:I think instead of a 3+ Invulnerable save he should have the ability to transfer any hits he take to anyone within 2". now that's something more likely. maybe Jurgan can just count as a squad member for determining if he can attack (so he doesn't need to be in base contact) as I don't recall him ever fighting in Hand to Hand... if you don't count when he punched a grot off the side of a Trukk.

also why does Jurgan have a Laspistol?

i think i like the scoundrel 3+ invul save to avoid damage a bit more than the more sinister transfering wounds to his squad; it sounds a bit too mean for cain. people die around him as they're inspired to dangerous heroics but not because he's ducking behind them.

as for jurgen, no particular reason except for he seemed incomplete without it as i based him off of a veteran guardman and it seemed more appropriate. since i can't think of a reason to keep it, i should switch it back to a close combat weapon that the guardsman would normally have.

warboss wrote:

Oscarius wrote:Nah, I think a 2+ "dispel" of psycic powers is fine. Like you said, there is a host of other things with an equal effect. Witchhunters also got retinue members which have the EXACT same effect as Jurgen.

The more I think about it a 2++ could work. He is not stubborn unless he's a squad, is only t3 and is not very good in combat.

i totally forgot about that one and its actually the most appropriate since the pariah listed there is what jurgen is supposed to be (a null). each pariah costs 7pts and one gives the squad a 4+ vs psychic powers and two of them give a 2+. i think 3+ is a nice balance in that jurgen is better than a no name generic pariah but not so much better that he is the equal of two of them. thanks for pointing that out!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lotet wrote:I think instead of a 3+ Invulnerable save he should have the ability to transfer any hits he take to anyone within 2". now that's something more likely. maybe Jurgan can just count as a squad member for determining if he can attack (so he doesn't need to be in base contact) as I don't recall him ever fighting in Hand to Hand... if you don't count when he punched a grot off the side of a Trukk.

also why does Jurgan have a Laspistol?

i think i like the scoundrel 3+ invul save to avoid damage a bit more than the more sinister transfering wounds to his squad; it sounds a bit too mean for cain. people die around him as they're inspired to dangerous heroics but not because he's ducking behind them.

as for jurgen, no particular reason except for he seemed incomplete without it as i based him off of a veteran guardman and it seemed more appropriate. since i can't think of a reason to keep it, i should switch it back to a close combat weapon that the guardsman would normally have.

Well how many times has Cain been in the middle of the squad with a nice squad sheild around him

I agree that Cain cannot survive a Vortex Missle if he got hit by one.

It's just utterly silly to think he'd be anywhere near the spot where the missle hit in the first place! Seeing a Hero of the Imperium killed would be bad for morale, and Cain would unselfishly do everything he could to make sure that it never happens.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Footsloggin wrote:SMALL?!?!?!? The grenade, fine, but an APOCALYPTIC blast template is massive! The rule itself states that there are no if, an's, or buts, the model is gone... I guess you could make it applicable to any situation, but it just seems unfathomable that anything would survive...

warboss wrote:i definitely see where you're coming from but 40k is like that in general. standing behind a string of barbed wire has a 1 in 6 chance of stopping a superheavy baneblade main cannon tank round... that's 40k for you. the fluff is abstracted to form a rule that is hopefully clear yet concise if all goes well and sometimes it takes a bit of suspension of disbelief. also, i think you're confusing several different rules in apoc. most apoc blast template weapons (7 or 10") are not strength D and still generally require a str vs t roll as well as allow a cover save. Strength D is what i think you're referring to and is a small minority of apoc weapons. If my cain acts a bit wierd in apoc, i'm ok with that as most normal 40k stuff interacts wierdly with the apoc expansion rules. i'm mainly trying to work out a version of cain that works in normal 40k. as a side note, technically jurgen's driving rule as written makes a transport titan like an emperor a fast vehicle if he's in it. i could add another explicit exception for walkers but adding it would make the rule (IMO) a bit too wordy and confusing for a situation that is incredibly rare to begin with since nothing that i know of in normal 40k is a walker and transport.

mikhaila wrote:I agree that Cain cannot survive a Vortex Missle if he got hit by one.

It's just utterly silly to think he'd be anywhere near the spot where the missle hit in the first place! Seeing a Hero of the Imperium killed would be bad for morale, and Cain would unselfishly do everything he could to make sure that it never happens.

Maybe a negative modifier to enemys trying to hit? and roll an extra scatter if a blast lands on him

Maybe call it "Improbable Luck"

lol, so how do you guys like the rules for a NORMAL 40k game instead of in the case of being hit by the most powerful category of a subclass of weapons in one uncommonly used expansion of the game?? i've played apoc twice total since i got back into 40k almost two years ago... it's not exactly tops on my list of things to bring cain into. besides, if you're aiming your vortex missle launcher at a target as low priority as cain, you're probably ignoring a 1000pt titan on the other side of the board!

^True, but killing an entire horde of guardsmen is a plus...

I actually like the model, has nice fluff to back it up. I personally haven't read the books, but it may be worth giving Cain a bolt-pistol if he ever has one in them. It would provide a small, nice addition to the character, and doesn't have to impact his points cost significantly or at all, given that a laspistol is pretty pathetic from a game standpoint...

Footsloggin wrote:^True, but killing an entire horde of guardsmen is a plus...

I actually like the model, has nice fluff to back it up. I personally haven't read the books, but it may be worth giving Cain a bolt-pistol if he ever has one in them. It would provide a small, nice addition to the character, and doesn't have to impact his points cost significantly or at all, given that a laspistol is pretty pathetic from a game standpoint...

Well he has a cainsword and a laspistol in the books, but he's an expert with both

Footsloggin wrote:^True, but killing an entire horde of guardsmen is a plus...

I actually like the model, has nice fluff to back it up. I personally haven't read the books, but it may be worth giving Cain a bolt-pistol if he ever has one in them. It would provide a small, nice addition to the character, and doesn't have to impact his points cost significantly or at all, given that a laspistol is pretty pathetic from a game standpoint...

i agree that normally a commissar's signature weapon of choice is a bolt pistol but Cain strangely ends up using a simple standard issue laspistol and chainsword his entire career. at one point in a battle, he's offered a hellpistol but opts not to use it. he says he's trained so long with a single pistol that his entire aim and fighting style could be off by changing it in the heat of battle even if the weapon is technically more powerful. the chainsword and laspistol seem to be his thing. with the rending added to all his attacks (not just close combat), that laspistol can damage almost anything in the game with a lucky shot.. which is very cain-esque.

What happens if Cain is killed via something like Telion's ability to allocate wounds to the model of choice, and Jurgen is left alone? I mean, there should either be a reprecussion or oddity should this happen...

Footsloggin wrote:What happens if Cain is killed via something like Telion's ability to allocate wounds to the model of choice, and Jurgen is left alone? I mean, there should either be a reprecussion or oddity should this happen...

Maybe a rule for Jurgen called "True Hero of the Imperium"

Footsloggin wrote:What happens if Cain is killed via something like Telion's ability to allocate wounds to the model of choice, and Jurgen is left alone? I mean, there should either be a reprecussion or oddity should this happen...

jurgen is an independent character and free to do what he wants after cain dies. until then, he's forced to stay within 2" of him and follow him around like the dutiful pungent aide that he is. i'm sure he'll mourn him after the battle.

Rather than an Invulnerable save, I'd give him a rule similar to the Saint's resurrection ability. Any time Cain would appear to be killed, he makes a leadership test. If he passes, he disappears, only to pop up out of some terrain feature at a later time.

I'd also give him a higher leadership and ATSKNF. Because despite the fact that he does know fear, his reaction to it is always to do what would best ensure his survival. A rout that would make him vulnerable to being wiped out by his pursuers is antithetical to his character.