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Alright everyone I have a question for you all:

I am thinking of starting chaos daemons eventually... and i was wondering: Could i put them on square bases and use them in both 40k and fantasy? so my question is: Would you mind fighting a daemons army in 40k with square bases?

I wouldn't mind, as long as you were cool with playing WHFB against my demons with round bases.

It's not a good idea. The problem is that if you place the models diagonally in relation to an enemy (with one of the corners pointing at them), the corner to corner distance is ~1.4", not 1". You can gain movement this way, either deliberately or inadvertantly.

Even if you deliberately try not to, you can accidentally benefit, and opponents may be suspicious and unhappy even if you're NOT trying to get an advantage.

Square bases also are widely seen as less aesthetically pleasing in a skirmish game like 40k.

The far better alternative is to base them on round bases, and use movement trays in fantasy with round cutouts, to allow you to easily use them in that system. A couple of different companies make these, IIRC, though you can also make them yourself.



http://www.gf9.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=103

its legal

SweetLou wrote:its legal

really? I havent checked yet, but i jsut figured it didnt say anything about it (i assumed the BRB assumed you used the round bases)

Is it legal? IIRC round for 40k and square for WHFB?

squeaking out inches of movement is a legit strategy get outta here ...

casual game I wouldnt mind

Competitively though heck no ...

Yeah I wouldn't be happy to see it in a tourny, but short of that I'm in.

It's 100% legal to use square bases in 40K, so even if someone doesn't like it for some reason, they have way to to oppose it.

It's definitely legal, as the only rule in 40K is that you have to use the base that the model comes with. Whereas Fantasy insists upon square bases. Therefore, for daemons, who come with both, you're perfectly within your rights to play 40K with square bases. As for what sort of response you'll get from that, as this very thread attests, I can not speak for. Personally, I could care less. You want to play 40K and Fantasy, therefore, you did the simplest thing to allow for that.

40k has no specifications on the SHAPE of the bases, only that they MUST be based on the ones they come with.

Bookwrack wrote:It's 100% legal to use square bases in 40K, so even if someone doesn't like it for some reason, they have no way to oppose it.

Well, besides not playing the game, of course.


I agree, square bases are totally legal by the rules. Of course as a personal preference, if you have the option of basing them on either for use in both games I'd definitely suggest going with Mannahnin's suggestion above.

Base they were supplied with /end of thread

I'd be fine with square bases, easier to hit with template and blast weapons.

Shivan Reaper wrote:I'd be fine with square bases, easier to hit with template and blast weapons.

this, definitely.

If your in a serious tournament, fat-chance letting it slide. The up to date kits come with both square and round bases so you can chose. If your kit doesn't come with circle bases then you can buy them separately.

That or you can be the guy who thinks hes cleverly found the 10,000th unspecified rule. If the rule is that they can use the bases the kit comes with, well my Necron Warriors are going on Scarab Swarm bases and my Scarab Swarms are going on Warrior bases. GG ordinance vs unit coherency. Except I'm not that guy.

LordofSteel wrote:If your in a serious tournament, fat-chance letting it slide.

From what I've seen, most tournaments do let it slide, based on the fact that the rules don't specify round bases, and the adjoining fact that the vast majority of players just don't care that much about which bases you use on your models, so long as you're not overly abusive with it.

insaniak wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:If your in a serious tournament, fat-chance letting it slide.

From what I've seen, most tournaments do let it slide, based on the fact that the rules don't specify round bases, and the adjoining fact that the vast majority of players just don't care that much about which bases you use on your models, so long as you're not overly abusive with it.

Well, I should have been more specific. Scratch serious tournaments, I meant official tournaments. I wouldn't recommend being that blatantly audacious as to bring fantasy based models to a 40k grand tournament, the judges there can have some assertive no-nonsense attitudes. Lets be honest, their is no rule because its pretty clear cut. Circle base = 40k, Square base = Fantasy.

Just to add to this, I personally wouldn't have problems playing a game against someone using square based daemons. I let a lot slide, I'm a very easy going player. Although I personally am very particular about my own army, I make it WYSIWYG down to a tee. I field fully painted armies, and make terrain very rule friendly. I do this because I personally find winning a game without any question of foul play is much more satisfying.

What do you mean by "official"?

GW run tournaments, as in UK GT last year, really dont care if you bring square based models to the tournament as it *gasp* follows the rules given in the BRB.

Additionally I assume you havent played 40k very long, as 40k has used, in the past, rectangular AND hexagonal bases.

Alternatively, try some pinning or some other clever method of keeping your model on its base, but not glued. That way, switch between games.

LordofSteel wrote:

insaniak wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:If your in a serious tournament, fat-chance letting it slide.

From what I've seen, most tournaments do let it slide, based on the fact that the rules don't specify round bases, and the adjoining fact that the vast majority of players just don't care that much about which bases you use on your models, so long as you're not overly abusive with it.

Well, I should have been more specific. Scratch serious tournaments, I meant official tournaments.

No you didn't. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Modquisition on. Lets remember Dakka Rule #1 and keep this polite or risk temporary or permanent suspension. One can argue the points in a polite fashion.


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Note: This issue, specifically in regard to demon armies has been discussed previously with some interesting points. You might search that.

It is legal and most veteran players with lots of templets like seeing them on squares lol. I play mine in 40K on squares and have played several, even won a few, tournaments with them. Only one guy ever questioned it, but it was as I killed his last unit for a massacre at a tourney. I just looked at him and asked "Seriously?". But yea totally legal to use square in 40K.

nosferatu1001 wrote:What do you mean by "official"?

GW run tournaments, as in UK GT last year, really dont care if you bring square based models to the tournament as it *gasp* follows the rules given in the BRB.

Which page is this rule on exactly. Specificity is more effective than sarcasm when proving a point.

npsferatu1001 wrote: Additionally I assume you haven't played 40k very long, as 40k has used, in the past, rectangular AND hexagonal bases.

I have played 40k for a long time. Since 3rd edition, however I started with a 2nd edition starter set. I have never seen hexagonal bases. As for rectangular yes, obviously... They are still used in current 40k kits. Thanks for the backhanded history lesson though.

Anyway if its in the rulebook give me a page. I humbly await a useful reply.






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Bookwrack wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:

insaniak wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:If your in a serious tournament, fat-chance letting it slide.

From what I've seen, most tournaments do let it slide, based on the fact that the rules don't specify round bases, and the adjoining fact that the vast majority of players just don't care that much about which bases you use on your models, so long as you're not overly abusive with it.

Well, I should have been more specific. Scratch serious tournaments, I meant official tournaments.

No you shouldn't. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, I'm waiting for a page #. Everyone has taken my post as an attack so far and have just answered with blunt and borderline rude replies without any substance of proof. People seem more eager to be rude than to be knowledgeable.

Like I said before, I have no problem playing people who use square bases, it just seems like such common knowledge that Circle = 40k and Square = Fantasy. I must have overlooked this square base rule in the book. I hope its as specific and direct as you all make me imagine it to be.

Page 3, where it states you use the base supplied with the model.

There is my rule allowing me to use square bases. Please find a rule requiring them to be circular.

Jet bikes had, at one point, awful hexagonal bases.

LordofSteel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:What do you mean by "official"?

GW run tournaments, as in UK GT last year, really dont care if you bring square based models to the tournament as it *gasp* follows the rules given in the BRB.

Which page is this rule on exactly. Specificity is more effective than sarcasm when proving a point.

npsferatu1001 wrote: Additionally I assume you haven't played 40k very long, as 40k has used, in the past, rectangular AND hexagonal bases.

I have played 40k for a long time. Since 3rd edition, however I started with a 2nd edition starter set. I have never seen hexagonal bases. As for rectangular yes, obviously... They are still used in current 40k kits. Thanks for the backhanded history lesson though.

Anyway if its in the rulebook give me a page. I humbly await a useful reply.






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Bookwrack wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:

insaniak wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:If your in a serious tournament, fat-chance letting it slide.

From what I've seen, most tournaments do let it slide, based on the fact that the rules don't specify round bases, and the adjoining fact that the vast majority of players just don't care that much about which bases you use on your models, so long as you're not overly abusive with it.

Well, I should have been more specific. Scratch serious tournaments, I meant official tournaments.

No you shouldn't. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, I'm waiting for a page #. Everyone has taken my post as an attack so far and have just answered with blunt and borderline rude replies without any substance of proof. People seem more eager to be rude than to be knowledgeable.

Like I said before, I have no problem playing people who use square bases, it just seems like such common knowledge that Circle = 40k and Square = Fantasy. I must have overlooked this square base rule in the book. I hope its as specific and direct as you all make me imagine it to be.

It is, and that's why people aren't being very patient with you.

Also on kind of a side point. It hurts Daemon players far more being on squares, more hit by templates, more can get into base contact with you. While you can not increase or decrease being on square. There are no advantages to having them on squares bases. One last point the square bases are not winning or breaking games, and are still on 25mm scale. I always figured that is why GW made all the core Daemon square bases 25 mm.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 3, where it states you use the base supplied with the model.

There is my rule allowing me to use square bases. Please find a rule requiring them to be circular.

Jet bikes had, at one point, awful hexagonal bases.

Heheh. Well lol, I don't even know what to say exactly. I can kind of see why no one would give me the page or more specifically the rule right off the bat. This is clearly one of the rules that is overly interpreted to create a new rule. This rule is only there to tell you that your models must be based for proper play.

Honestly, if someone uses square bases against me, the use of the bases is not the foul play, its the deliberate misinterpretation of the rule on page 3 that would be foul play. Doing so kind of gives the impression of alternative motives.

Alright well, here is whats wrong.

-2nd paragraph, it says mounting your models on different-sized bases might effect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent doesn't mind this. Right there you already need your opponents consent. Against me, I would let it slide (with a massive grin on my face).

-It says Citadel Miniatures are usually supplied with a plastic base, if so they must be glued onto their bases. You are taking this far to literally lol, I'll break it down for you. A Monolith comes with no base, therefor it does not have to be based. A Dreadnought does come with a base, therefor it must use its base. Up to date Chaos Daemon kits come with both circle and square bases, only because these models can be bought for the intention of 40k use or Fantasy use. You make the call by basing them with either circle or square. Pretty clear cut. This doesn't necessarily limit you to use them in only 40k or fantasy, however you need your opponents consent. Yes 9/10 times it will be no problem.

Look if you played in a 40k tournament using square bases and had no problems. Fantastic, I'm all for it. My original posts just advised against it for the obvious reason, you can get away with square bases without much of a fuss. However you can get away with circle bases with absolutely zero fuss. If a GT tournament judge let it slide then he just didn't care. However, don't confuse this with one proving to the judge its a mandatory rule to use square bases.

Check out page 200, that's pretty official if you ask me.


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Bookwrack wrote:
It is, and that's why people aren't being very patient with you.

lol, omg. Just relax man. Their is no need.

Sol wrote:Also on kind of a side point. It hurts Daemon players far more being on squares, more hit by templates, more can get into base contact with you. While you can not increase or decrease being on square. There are no advantages to having them on squares bases. One last point the square bases are not winning or breaking games, and are still on 25mm scale. I always figured that is why GW made all the core Daemon square bases 25 mm.

If a flat side of the base is facing an enemy unit you wish to move toward and shoot or assault, and you pivot said base at all as you move, you will gain distance. A square is ~40% wider measured corner to corner than it is edge to edge. That's ~10mm, or up to 5mm of distance gained by a pivot with a 25mm base. More with a larger square.

In a game of inches like 40k, I have seen literally hundreds (if not thousands) of shooting, assault, and objective-holding measurements over the last twelve years be in range or out of range by that much.

Most of the time it's a disadvantage to the daemon player, sure. But if it becomes an advantage even ONCE, that's a game in which you may have inadvertently cheated your opponent and/or fostered some dissatisfaction/resentment in him.

It's just not worth it, IMO. Especially given that using movement trays is functionally mandatory in Warhammer Fantasy Battle anyway, and it's EASY to just mount them on rounds and put them on the trays when playing WH for proper movement and combat handling.

I agree that most players don't raise objections (though I got them a few times back when I was using square-based daemons in my Chaos Marine army), and will accept that the bases ARE the ones provided and thus fulfill the criteria on page 3. But why even let the possibility of an issue arise? If you mount them on rounds there is no chance of a problem.

Mannahnin wrote:
But why even let the possibility of an issue arise? If you mount them on rounds there is no chance of a problem.

Pure logic. I don't understand why people hold their ground to defend their square bases when choosing a circle base for a 40k game is the obvious solution. Deliberate misinterpretation of the rules only digs the foul-play hole deeper.

Thank you, but I have to call foul on that argument.

I don't think they're deliberately misinterpreting the rule at all. I think their reading is a reasonable interpretation of the rule, and casting aspersions of "foul play" has strong shades of an Ad Hominem attack/argument. Poor form.

I know where they're coming from; I did the exact same thing with my daemons initially, and for the same reason. It was legal, and seemed the best way to give the models the dual utility of being used in both systems. It was only later that I realized that I was both disadvantaging myself in some cases, and making measurements awkward and potentially gaining an advantage in others, that I began to see issues. And being a big fantasy player, when I saw the converter movement trays, I realized you can get the best of both worlds and avoid headaches (even minor or occasional ones) entirely.