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Okay, maybe I'm just missing something here, but I don't get the big deal about horde.

Steadfast at first I thought was a benefit, but that is granted by having more ranks than your opponent, which would imply deep ranks is preferable to wide front. This also has the benefit of insuring that you will always have those three extra ranks for CR.

So.. What exactly does Horde give me? Why is everyone so excited about it? It sounds like a huge change, but I just don't get it.

Would anyone like to enlighten me?

It completely depends on the troop type. Some army choices will benefit more than others.

Probably the optimum beneficiary are High Elf Spearmen where a 10 x 5 formantion would given them a whopping 50 potential attacks.

At the other end of the scale you have Skaven Slaves who as you pointed out would be better off in a deep formation to benefit from steadfast.

Great Weapon wielders do quite well in Horde as the extra rank of attacks enables you to hit back harder.

At the end of the day, you can only try it and see what works.

Unit A has ranks 5 wide and 10 deep. Front rank can attack and second rank has 1 attack each. Spears add a third rank and high elf spears add the 4th rank (each giving 1 additional attack).

Assuming HW+S

Total of 11 attacks (1 attack for each in 2nd and 1 for each in front plus 1 for champion).

Unit B has 10 Wide by 5 Deep. Front Rank an attack plus second. Third attacks because of Horde, 4th because of spears and 5th because of High elf spears.

Total of 31 attacks (1 attack for each in 2nd and 3rd and 1 for each in front plus 1 for champion).

Now lets factor in base size (20 mm vs 25 mm) and consider that if if Unit A and Unit B faced each other then Unit B would only have 22 (with same bases size 7 touching 5 for 8+7+7) attacks and Unit A would have steadfast.

Next factor in how deadly your unit is compared to your opponents. 5 wide Warriors versus 10 wide skaven slaves? I will bet on the warriors winning in the end.

So while you may have steadfast by being deep. You are more likely to lose more models (and more rounds of combat) and have to test more often.

Both ways have an advantage. Which one you use will be based on what you want to accomplish.

That is my take on it.

It certainly depends on each unit. Some have little to gain from it. But other alot. It can turn a relatively weak but cheap unit into something that can pack quite a punch now. I've been enjoying using ungors in horde formation of late for beastmen. Using lore of beasts signature spell to make them strength/toughness 4. Coupled up with 30 attacks in horde formation that's alot of potential damage.

Try to remember that your formation is not set in stone. Nothing stops you from reforming your horde, to a deeper formation should the need arise. It really depends on what is on the field. I love the idea of horded Lothern Sea Guard, but it is not always something that can be used. The potential to go horded however can be quite useful in many circumstances. A massive unit of Goblins against a monster, the Goblins will likely remain steadfast even in horde formation, and any extra attacks would be helpful.

Lehnsherr wrote:Try to remember that your formation is not set in stone. Nothing stops you from reforming your horde, to a deeper formation should the need arise. It really depends on what is on the field. I love the idea of horded Lothern Sea Guard, but it is not always something that can be used. The potential to go horded however can be quite useful in many circumstances. A massive unit of Goblins against a monster, the Goblins will likely remain steadfast even in horde formation, and any extra attacks would be helpful.

True. If your horde takes too much shooting damage/survives a meatgrinding fight they can reform into a smaller formation. Its just a useful option to have when the need arises.

Lehnsherr wrote: A massive unit of Goblins against a monster, the Goblins will likely remain steadfast even in horde formation, and any extra attacks would be helpful.

If im not mistaken Monsters don't have ranks. So until the Goblin unit drops under 1 Rank (5 models) it will be steadfast. This is regardless of what formation the unit started in.
The only risk is a flank charge by something with ranks. You don't just have to think "What do I want now?" but also what is better later? Horde formation is an aggressive formation,
and requires an active flank defence. Korne Warriors might not care if they are flanked but most other units will.
When in doubt go deep.

Flashman wrote:
Probably the optimum beneficiary are High Elf Spearmen where a 10 x 5 formantion would given them a whopping 50 potential attacks.

I'd argue their benefit isn't as great as others. Even in normal formation, they fight in 4 ranks, so they're really only getting an additional 25% increase in attacks per model in base to base.

Those models that benefit the greatest are single attack, high strength infantry. Great weapon dwarves, bloodletters, graveguard, white lions are all examples of units whose can get good value from horde formation. Units that go horde are (probably) trading steadfast for raw killing power, hoping to win combat through casualties- just flat out killing your way clear of any steadfast advantage.

If im not mistaken Monsters don't have ranks. So until the Goblin unit drops under 1 Rank (5 models) it will be steadfast

I wasn't so much saying that you need to worry about steadfast, but that being steadfast no matter what (Goblins vs a Monster) the extra attacks are always nice.

Zeke reminded me of another good point. Units that are already stubborn can benefit greatly from a horde formation. White Lions, I think Long Beards, and even unbreakable units like Grave Guard can really benefit from the bonus attacks.

The point is to take big units and then switch between horde and deep formation depending on your opponent and the state of the game.

If your big block of orcs comes up against a similarly big block of Men at Arms, then you switch to horde and pound them to death. After a turn or two of winning combat you can reform into a deep formation to remove their steadfast

If you then come up against a big block of Grail Knights set to charge you next turn you want to switch to a deep formation to maintain your steadfast - after you've resisted the charge you would consider whether to reform or not - do you have any other units that can will be able to hit the enemy's flanks in a turn or two, and if you don't will another rank of attacks from your boyz help turn the combat in your favour, or should you just sit there and grin it out and make the knights work to break your unit?

Horde is really only a viable formation for very cheap troopers, under 10 PPM. I use empire halberdiers. If you do anything more expensive than that in tournament play, sooner or later somebody will dwell it or purple sun it or just gateway it into oblivion.

My horde of halberdiers costs 270 points (if I take all 50) including command, and then throw in a priest for around 100 points. Against most units (5 models wide) this nets me 22 attacks, hatred, s4. It's at its best against other infantry, but can be somewhat viable against monsters as well (the main problem being that it's not agile, so struggles to catch them).

People have discussed hordes of white lions, halberd khorne chosen, ironguts, etc... if you really want to put that many points in a single unit, go for it. There's a million things that could happen. Could get redirected off to nowhere with a unit of chaos dogs. Could get tar pitted by a speculum pope or a khaleth dreadlord with the stubborn crown. Could get gatewayed. Could roll badly one time and then fail the break test.

It's too big a risk. Hordes are for infantry schlubs.

I don't know- I think there's some 12 point models that make for quite a nice horde. Bloodletters are a popular, and understandable example...

Squig herds are pretty fun to horde. Only 300 points for a unit of 10x5 and a bunch of S5 attacks. T3 and no armor is a pain, but you can't have everything.

I was hesitant at first, but now I always run my 40 'letters in horde. It _really_ increases their hitting power on the charge, considering they have rerollable ws5 str5 attacks...

Im really tempted to run 49 miners w/full command and a steam drill and a thane with bsb, MR of grungi (5++ against shooting and magic missiles) and a rune of brotherhood (can underground advance with the miners.

All this costs 753 points, capable of hiting with 33 str 5 or 6 attacks, and can come in on your board edge, this unit will be next to impossile to kill!

Lets settle for incredibly hard, there are other deathstars that would be able to handle it.

Skaven Giant Rats weigh in at 3 points per model, have better WS and LD than Skavenslaves (even before the packmasters!) and get Fight In Extra Ranks even on the charge (as per the Skaven FaQ). Throw those into a Horde and you have a M5 unit that can fight in 4 ranks on the charge. Not bad for a measly 125 points! (39 rats + 1 packmaster)

streamdragon wrote:Skaven Giant Rats weigh in at 3 points per model, have better WS and LD than Skavenslaves (even before the packmasters!) and get Fight In Extra Ranks even on the charge (as per the Skaven FaQ). Throw those into a Horde and you have a M5 unit that can fight in 4 ranks on the charge. Not bad for a measly 125 points! (39 rats + 1 packmaster)

Indeed. That's a sickeningly low cost for that much fodder.

Of course, at $10 for 4 giant rats, or $40 for 6 (and rat ogres) you're dropping a pretty penny to get that unit.

Or you're sneaky like all good skaven should be and just by a thing of bases, then use all the "base decoration" rats you get with your Clan Rats / Storm Vermin / Plague Monk boxes to make your rat swarm.


I haven't gotten to try it yet, but I'm kinda looking forward to it. Even with 37 rats / 5 pack masters spread 7 wide instead of horde, you're getting 21 rat attacks + 5 pack master whip attacks (as they can attack from the 4th rank with their whips!) against a typical 5 wide block of 20mm based infantry.

Sounds suitably fiendish for Skaven. Even if the unit gets destroyed its just there to wear the enemy down. Always more rats where they came from!

Add Mr Gnawtooth to your horde of Giant Rats for more fun. Extra attacks for the front rank, poisoned attacks or regenerate

Giant rat hordes are also handy for hitting deep ranked units in the flank, cos they are extra quick.

Flashman wrote:Add Mr Gnawtooth to your horde of Giant Rats for more fun. Extra attacks for the front rank, poisoned attacks or regenerate

Giant rat hordes are also handy for hitting deep ranked units in the flank, cos they are extra quick.

I really, REALLY want to field him, but my group doesn't use SCs yet :(

Although because the packmasters are M5 the unit isn't any faster than most skaven units really, at least not until the packmasters get killed.

For some reason I thought packmasters were always able to keep up with their charges.

For an uber-duber combo, if you get poisoned from Gnawtooth, get Bless with Filth off on them so you're rolling 4 attacks per base in contact poisoning on 5s!

streamdragon wrote:Although because the packmasters are M5 the unit isn't any faster than most skaven units really, at least not until the packmasters get killed.

Packmasters are M6

d-usa wrote:

streamdragon wrote:Although because the packmasters are M5 the unit isn't any faster than most skaven units really, at least not until the packmasters get killed.

Packmasters are M6

Huh... how on earth did I miss that?

Red_Zeke wrote:For some reason I thought packmasters were always able to keep up with their charges.

For an uber-duber combo, if you get poisoned from Gnawtooth, get Bless with Filth off on them so you're rolling 4 attacks per base in contact poisoning on 5s!

70 attacks with 5+ poison. Thats disgusting, that 23 automatic wounds