Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At what point does list tailoring break the rules and spirit of the game?

I'll admit, i'll change my list every game if i can. Some slight modification or a complete overhaul. Besides reading the paper or listening to the radio there isn't much else to do on the bus to work... and i might just stumble upon something fun that i hadn't though of before.

This, i belive to be perfectly fine, as long i have a finished list before i get to the store and find an opponent no-one seems to mind.

However... A certain individual has started writing a new list "in his head" whenever he plays a game. Recently it is getting worse, where as he is waiting until your army is half out and on the table before making up his mind. The last game i saw him play (a battle mission) made the players deploy one unit at a time, alternating, and i believe he was writing his list as he was deploying units.

Now, we're not the kind of store that demands lists be shown (i keep mine on my phone if needs be but no1 asks for it), theres a certain element of trust, especially because we often help each other with those lists so we kinda know its not over-pointed. When deploying we are also pretty clear what each unit has and if we are using proxies, what they are.

Not having my rulebook with me ATM is there anything set in stone in the book regarding lists in the rules, i know you need one before the game starts... but was there more detail than that? And how best would you go about this scenario? The "core" vets are pretty used to it and won't unpack any models or show lists until hes finished deciding what to use... but alot of the newer kids are getting wooped by him... and we don't want to have to watch his every game or tattle-tale to the staff about it.

----------

Also. Is there a section detailing that rolls must be declared before rolling them? (again, no book ATM) or is that just good form and expected? I'm hoping its firmly set in the rules somewhere.

Not being a douche is not explicitly stated in the rules, it's something the people around you have to 'encourage.'

Call him out as a group, give him a way to vindicate himself.

Check p 92 in the BRB under Secrecy. It's not written in stone but you could insist on seeing his list before you play (which would include before you set out your forces).

dayve110 wrote: At what point does list tailoring break the rules and spirit of the game?

At the point you find someone violating page 86 of the rulebook. When you organize a battle, first you agree to a point list, then you pick your forces. How can you know if your opponent is adhering to the point limit if they have no list written down? You should have it written down somewhere as well, not just stored on your phone. Then when you deploy forces you refer to your sheet, and can ask him what force list he is referring to that shows he is complying with the army point limit.

dayve110 wrote:Also. Is there a section detailing that rolls must be declared before rolling them? (again, no book ATM) or is that just good form and expected? I'm hoping its firmly set in the rules somewhere.

Not exactly sure what you are asking here.

dayve110 wrote: The last game i saw him play (a battle mission) made the players deploy one unit at a time, alternating, and i believe he was writing his list as he was deploying units.

This is being a douchebag. I know a few people like this. 'Tis sad, really.

Ask to see his list before you even open your stuff. Put your list on the table and come out and say it, "I'm not putting any models out until you put your list on the table. (here's the taunt) You are a good enough general to *not* need to tailor, aren'tcha?"

dayve110 wrote: Also. Is there a section detailing that rolls must be declared before rolling them? (again, no book ATM) or is that just good form and expected? I'm hoping its firmly set in the rules somewhere.

The guy is just dripping dice and not saying what they're for until after? Cheating. Flat out. It is a common thing for *cheaters* to do; difficult terrain rolls usually, shooting sometimes.

I'd say, "You didn't say what you were rolling for, so re-roll it and please call which unit and what for, every time."

"I did call it," he replies. Make an excuse that you're still have some hearing loss due to an ipod blowout and that he needs to shout for you.

Page 14, 3rd paragraph, "... the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain ..." so yeah there is a section that asks for a declaration on DiffTs.

On the other side of he coin, when tailoring is okay:
When setting up a game in advance, say your marines against his orks, you're probably good to max out on flamers. Knowing that you're playing marines, he can make sure that his Burnas and kans are maxed out, and that he's gonna bring Ghazghkull. to beat you. That sort of advance notice ought to be okay.

The last minute, 'look over the enemy army and *now* decide to max out on flamers, when the written list is all meltaguns' -- that's shenanigans.

Friendly games? We all play tailored lists! Yup, tailored lists that wind up being terrible fun to play considering the two lists are 99% different from what's expected...

"I have 20 Flamers MWAHAHAHA!!!"

"Oh crack/p that may hurt my 27 Tyranid warriors a lot!"

"WAIT YOUR TAKING WARRIORS!?"

"Ya, with lash-whips and Bone-swords to combat your Space Marines...WHY DO YOU HAVE SO MANY SCOUTS!?"
"


If your playing with friends though, just agree that the two of you will make themed, odd, or all-comers lists... This way the game can be enjoyed over an Ice-Cold Beer/Coke, or, considering the time of year, a nice warm war Coco/Coffee/Eggnog...

A friend of mine who sometimes plays 40k (he knows the rules, though conveniently 'forgets' some at times...) utterly hates losing. Regardless of the game, if the outcome is a loss he will say that it was at no point fun. As you can probably well guess, I don't try to play against him often (which works out because every time he plays he has to borrow my space marine army...he hasn't purchased a single 40k model ever). The last few months that he played semi-regularly (once or twice a month...he doesn't play at all these days) he did the same sort of thing that the OP was talking about but in a different fashion. We would be getting together at my house and use Army Builder, displayed in HTML instead of printing lists to save on paper. He would ALWAYS fashion his list after mine, and it always seemed like if i took Nidzilla he took lascannons and melta and missiles. If i took a swarmier build, suddenly he felt the urge to run landspeeders with heavy flamers and the like. Of course it was obvious he was waiting to make his list after he saw mine, because to him it was just good 'generalship' to see what you were facing against and bring your strongest forces to bear in that fashion.

I am glad he doesn't ask to play 40k anymore. He got his ass handed to him at a few tournaments where he couldn't pull such tricks and rely on list tailoring to win, and suddenly felt that 40k just wasn't his game anymore. Bwahahahaha.

Footsloggin wrote:Friendly games? We all play tailored lists! Yup, tailored lists that wind up being terrible fun to play considering the two lists are 99% different from what's expected...
"I have 20 Flamers MWAHAHAHA!!!"
"Oh crack/p. That may hurt my 27 Tyranid warriors a lot!"
"WAIT! YOU'RE TAKING WARRIORS!?"
"Ya, with lash-whips and Bone-swords to combat your Space Marines...WHY DO YOU HAVE SO MANY SCOUTS!?"
"

*This* is funny.

Refuse to take anything out of the case until he's exchanged lists with you. Simply tell the guy that either he has a list ready to go, or you don't play a game.

trade lists before the game starts and make him declare what he's rolling the dice for.

And feel free to advise any new players of his shenanigans, and that they should ask for his list before even rolling for deployment; loudly and as close to him as possible. These are the type of people that really drive me batty.

Footsloggin wrote:Friendly games? We all play tailored lists! Yup, tailored lists that wind up being terrible fun to play considering the two lists are 99% different from what's expected...

"I have 20 Flamers MWAHAHAHA!!!"

"Oh crack/p that may hurt my 27 Tyranid warriors a lot!"

"WAIT YOUR TAKING WARRIORS!?"

"Ya, with lash-whips and Bone-swords to combat your Space Marines...WHY DO YOU HAVE SO MANY SCOUTS!?"
"


If your playing with friends though, just agree that the two of you will make themed, odd, or all-comers lists... This way the game can be enjoyed over an Ice-Cold Beer/Coke, or, considering the time of year, a nice warm war Coco/Coffee/Eggnog...

HA!

@time wizard. it's on my phone, but as a word document + i don't own a printer + my handwriting is rubbish. would you really have a problem with that?

Regarding my little problem i'll have a chat with him... pointing at relevent rulles... wont help with the newbies but if he doesnt let up, might have to talk to the staff or set a watch on him :(

dayve110 wrote: @time wizard. it's on my phone, but as a word document + i don't own a printer + my handwriting is rubbish. would you really have a problem with that?

Not in the least, because I'm sure that after I gave you my list to look over (or told you what units and wargear I was bringing to the table) that you would do the same for me.

dayve110 wrote:Regarding my little problem i'll have a chat with him... pointing at relevent rulles... wont help with the newbies but if he doesnt let up, might have to talk to the staff or set a watch on him :(

The onluy problem I see with this player is in changing his list "on the fly" which is clearly against the rules (in spirit if not in fact) and he should be told that he is breaking the rules and theat there really is not reason to do so.

All lists should be fully written out before the game begins. End of story. As a result, there is no reason not to let your opponent see your list once all lists have been written. Anyone who tells you different is trying to set up a cheat. I've noticed that, invariably, whenever an opponent refuses to let me see the list, they either have a) a "convenient" mathematical error, usually involving forgetting to carry a digit in the "100s" place, netting between 10% and 5% more points, b) FOC "errors," most of the time involving characters that let you modify what units are taken in which slots, or c) upgrades they haven't paid for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:

dayve110 wrote: Also. Is there a section detailing that rolls must be declared before rolling them? (again, no book ATM) or is that just good form and expected? I'm hoping its firmly set in the rules somewhere.

The guy is just dripping dice and not saying what they're for until after? Cheating. Flat out. It is a common thing for *cheaters* to do; difficult terrain rolls usually, shooting sometimes.

I'd say, "You didn't say what you were rolling for, so re-roll it and please call which unit and what for, every time."

Also, this.

If you don't call it, it counts for nothing. Once you've called it, the next roll counts. No rolling and going "oh, I was just moving the dice," no "practicing," none of that ballistic skill. Call it and roll it.

See the box on P86.

No. 1 is "choose forces"
No. 2 is "prepare the battlefield"

He needs a list written before you put scenery down.

Personally, I would suggest not even telling him what army you're playing until his list is written (on paper).

Hmm, when i first started playing we had several issues with a few players. One ran Tau and seemed to be abusing the built-in weapons. He would never have a list with him and seemed to be field a pretty good amount of models. Anytime I did something or he needed some ability he would declare he had spent the points for it. He never made a written list and I'm not really familiar with Tau, so it made things difficult. End result, I will not play again unless he has a list. I'm not too worried about armies I know the points for. Most of them I can add up in my head and know what is there. One other good rule is have both players place out their forces on the sidelines at the same time.

Another issue came from a player who it seemed had an issue with forgetting to make certain rolls. Dangerous terrain, psychic test, etc. It became a constant deal to have to either remind him or have to deal with him saying I just did, when the roll made was for something else, like difficult terrain, then using a power. I would of put this off as inexperience, but he had been playing for several years. Against some of the other players he seemed to be taking advantage of them not knowing all the rules.

Recently another player has been trying to get away with measure targets to shoot at and then instead of shooting, he says " oh, that's not what I'm doing- I'm running instead."

In friendly games this can make the game unfriendly. If you think someone cheats don't play them. In most cases not having a lists seems like cheating. I like to bring a notebook with me, so if someone doesn't have a list, I give them a sheet and let them write it up. I don't get any compliants from that. I normally bring three different armies, so most players can't build a list specific to what I'm playing, since I don't say until they have a list ready.

Just got home from my parents. While picking up the normal Xmas loot i had a rummage in the attic and pulled down some SM and CSM which he doesn't even know i have. So it might be interesting when he tailors his list to fight "Dave, the Eldar guy" and i pull out some death guard

^"Hmm, some Autocannons for those Fire Prisms..."

*The next day*

"PLAGUE MARINES!!?!"

Pg. 86 of the rules states the 1st thing you do is "Agree points limit & choose forces" Deploy forces is down at #4 so you can hit him with that one if you want.

I had the same problem asyou except I was "Dave the Tau guy". One day I showed up with orks & now I'm "Dave the ork guy". Sadly there's only one other guy there who plays anything close to compeitive so even with tailored lists I've only had 1 loss in 4 months.