Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The clue's in the title: Whenever someone makes a competitive Ork list, it seems like if they don't take Deffcoptas then they will be shot at dawn. The most common one is a unit consisting of a single Deffcopta with a Buzzsaw and a TL Rokkit, totalling up at 70 points. In no way does that seem like an attractive choice for me: TL Rokkits, fine, but still with BS2, and even though they have a Power Klaw, they are only S6. Am I missing something here, as it just seems like an ok choice, nothing I would take en mass.

They get a scout move, so they can turbo boost 24", move 12" during your first turn and assault 6", thus giving you a nice 42" charge range, autohitting the rear armour of one enemy tank of your choice with your S6 attacks because they didn't move last turn. Also, you might even get lucky with the rockets, but that's a bonus.

Absolutely a suicide unit, but hopefully one which can (before dying) rip through an expensive vehicle's back armour or other juicy target, or otherwise disrupt the enemy's back line while the rest of the orks trundle forward.

Opinion is certainly divided on whether the buzz-saw is worth the points - rather depends on what the enemy army is - and some players prefer a unit of 2 for some survivablity.

First Turn Charge, Plus TL Rokkit, PLus S7 on the Charge = Usually one dead tank or transport before game starts. And Orks are all about reducing opponent's mobility and ranged firepower.

Hmm, I see how the Turbo Boosting Scout move increases it's survivability, and a 42" threat range is very attractive.

This thread truly informed me. Thank you guys

St7 and auto hit on the charge if you get the 1st turn. T5 and 2 wounds, they are very strong!!

Phillip

not to mention you can..

Scout > Turbo Boost
Move 12"
charge 6"

kill said tank.

Then on opponets turn, you still have a cover save from the last Turboboost.

of course.. if you have first turn for above.

Spyder68 wrote:not to mention you can..

Scout > Turbo Boost
Move 12"
charge 6"

kill said tank.

Then on opponets turn, you still have a cover save from the last Turboboost.

of course.. if you have first turn for above.

This got FAQed, it no longer works.

Deffkoptas are great units, for many reasons. I often run them.

However, I've never used the Rokkit / Buzzsaw single Deffkopta tactic before, and there's several reasons why.

1) The tactic requires that you get 1st turn. If you don't get first turn, you've sunk 70 points into a unit that you're now going to likely need to outflank with, since if you don't it will likely get destroyed turn 1. Don't get me wrong, an outflanking Deffkopta is still awesome, but you're not likely going to get those auto-hits.

2) The tactic won't work on Dawn of War deployments. If you roll for deployment in your gaming group, 1/3 of the time, your Deffkopta won't be able to start on the board. If your group always does a standard deployment, well, you're doing better because of the metagame.

3) It's a 70 pt suicide unit. 70 pts is a lot of points for an Ork player. I can do a LOT with 70 pts. 70 pts buys 5 Stormboyz, or almost 2 Killa Kanz. Ork suicide units are better in the 30 point range. 70 is too much.

4) The Buzzsaw isn't necessary for this tactic to work. Deffkoptas still have furious charge, so you'll be getting 3 attacks which if you get a "6" on you can glance a vehicle. Are you going to wreck the vehicle? No, but you can get lucky and immobilize it or stun it on turn 1. You've also only invested 45 pts in the tactic intstead of 70, and the enemy is going to be forced to deal with your Deffkopta in his lines one way or another.

It's not a BAD tactic by any means. Wrecking a skimmer turn 1 is awesome. However, I'd rather have a unit of 2 Deffkoptas with Rokkits and maybe a buzzsaw on one of them. This unit has survivability, and I CAN use it for this tactic if I really want to, but if not, I can outflank or do a normal deployment for hit and run attacks. It's much more flexible, and not a dedicated suicide unit.

Still, you're paying now much more pts if you take 2...

I find them beautiful... Even if you go second, you can turbo-boost in front of enemy and make him waste his shots on koptas instead on your other parts of army... I play wagon spam and having whole round of heavy weapons taking down my koptas, while wagons are left alone...

So even if you play down of war, you can always put them in reserves... Outflanking is great too... You can easily get into rear armor and shoot tough and dangerous opponents...

Imo, there are two solutions for anti-tanking (lets call it that)... One is single kopta with buzzsaw... And if you don't want to go that way, rokkit buggies... Buggies are much cheaper but lack alpha strike... And they can't be played in every army... I find them too mobile for green tide and kanz wall but go nice in wagon spam...

BishopX wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:not to mention you can..

Scout > Turbo Boost
Move 12"
charge 6"

kill said tank.

Then on opponets turn, you still have a cover save from the last Turboboost.

of course.. if you have first turn for above.

This got FAQed, it no longer works.

Yes it does:

Q: During the first turn of the game does a scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat
against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

There is no other mention of it in the official GW FaQ.

The Buzzsaw is a crucial piece of the puzzle for me. you only get 3 attacks as it is, after all, only an Ork Boy on a jetbike. hoping to get a 6 on three chances versus a 3+ on three chances is a significant downgrade, especially on critical targets.

While it is true the suicide kopta is at it's best with the first turn, it does not become useless in other roles. It's like arguing that you may face tyranids or Necrons that have no vehicles the Deff kopta can take out. It's true, but the overwhelming benefits that the suicide kopta brings to a take all comers list can not be overlooked.

They are especially devestating to Squadrons. I had a single kopta take out a full LR squadron with Pask (Immobilized one with rokkit, wrecked two in assault.)

The utility of actually having a unit with SCOUT is also something that can't be overlooked when trying to block of other scouts before the game starts, keeping that melta vet vendetta from getting close enough to drop off it's payload near your kans/battlewagons first turn is much more preferable than eating all the las cannons AND the meltaguns first turn.

I personally never outflank them even going second or in dawn of war, I'd much rather have them shooting rokkits until they die (I also advocate for the unit of 2 with 1 buzz saw and 2 rokkits though).

BishopX wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:not to mention you can..

Scout > Turbo Boost
Move 12"
charge 6"

kill said tank.

Then on opponets turn, you still have a cover save from the last Turboboost.

of course.. if you have first turn for above.

This got FAQed, it no longer works.

Correct.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Yes it does:

Q: During the first turn of the game does a scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat
against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

There is no other mention of it in the official GW FaQ.

I disagree.

The preceding movement phase being the one where the DeffKopta moved 12"? Yup. No 3+ cover here.

The 3+ cover from TURBO-SCOUT© is only there if the enemy has first turn after you did your TURBO-SCOUT© move (hence previous Movement phase). Please feel free to disagree, as I'm just judging this as I read.

I think there is some confusion as to what they mean first turn... Generally when turns are not given specifics, they are talking about PLAYER turn, not game turn. So if you go first after turbo boosting your scout unit, they can act as normal, but during your opponents turn they do NOT count as turbo boosting in the preceding turn. If you went second, they would, since your opponents turn would in fact be the first player turn.

Very few things actually use game turn, and when they do they clearly (or as clearly as GW does things) let you know.

You cannot put a value on it pointswise but any relatively cheap model that adjusts your opponents plans to deal with it, has the potential to draw fire from your more expensive units, and can pack a punch to boot is a must have.

As a SW player I can tell you that having a 140pt Fangs unit assaulted by a 70pt unit hurts. You avoid 5 missiles for at least the round, and seeing as how I do not take CC upgrades for the sarge in the unit(who does?) you could quite possibly take the unit out. That in addition to all the reasons given with transports or tank squads is why 70pts is not much to risk on a suicide unit. Hell I spend that for a MM/HF speeder and do not get the scout move or outflank options out of it.

@ Murrdox: The reason you gave about being able to buy so much in the Ork book with 70pts is not a negative IMO. If you can get so much out of 70pts it means you have the spare 70 to put into a very decent throw away unit that has a very good chance of doubling its points value in kills.

Actually it does work

The FaQ just words it a bit off.

It states the Scout move Counts as a movment for Turbo Boosting units to gain a cover save.

As the rule states when you turbo boost in the movement phase you get a 3+ cover save.

So pretty much.. You scout move/Turbo boost during it.

Opponet has first turn you have a cover save.

Now.. if you would read Turbo Boosters on page 76.

It says *nothing* about the previous movment phase on gaining the cover says.

It states a unit that turbo boosted in the movement phase gains a 3+ cover save in the following Enemy Shooting Phase.

It never says in previous movment phase.. that is vehicles.. that is why vehicles do not get a cover save the same was as described above.

Murrdox wrote:Deffkoptas are great units, for many reasons. I often run them.

However, I've never used the Rokkit / Buzzsaw single Deffkopta tactic before, and there's several reasons why.

I do. Occasionally. These days, the kill point he gives up seems too great a hindrance. Anyway, I'd like to address several of your points.

1) The tactic requires that you get 1st turn. If you don't get first turn, you've sunk 70 points into a unit that you're now going to likely need to outflank with, since if you don't it will likely get destroyed turn 1. Don't get me wrong, an outflanking Deffkopta is still awesome, but you're not likely going to get those auto-hits.

It's actually not as all-or-nothing as you might think. First turn doesn't always work because a canny opponent will bubble wrap his best transports to prevent you from charging them. Outflanking doesn't always mean you won't catch a stationary vehicle. Is your IG opponent really going to move his artillery unit rather than fire indirectly? Maybe, but it will likely mean you get a cover save on their target, as they will be forced to fire through terrain. Usually I find my opponent either overreacts to the threat my deffkopta presents (OMG STAY AWAY FROM THE BOARD EDGE!) or ignores it and pays the price .

2) The tactic won't work on Dawn of War deployments. If you roll for deployment in your gaming group, 1/3 of the time, your Deffkopta won't be able to start on the board. If your group always does a standard deployment, well, you're doing better because of the metagame.

They are less useful in DoW, but DoW is a place that ork players often get their deployment refused by the opponent. A deffkopta can be a great way of punishing people for refusing deployments. Having a deffkopta pop right up in the middle of an IG castle that deployed itself only in one corner is a pretty nice feeling.

3) It's a 70 pt suicide unit. 70 pts is a lot of points for an Ork player. I can do a LOT with 70 pts. 70 pts buys 5 Stormboyz, or almost 2 Killa Kanz. Ork suicide units are better in the 30 point range. 70 is too much.

I think this is your strongest point. 70 points is a lot. More and more lately I've been finding other uses for those 70 points (especially now that the Supreme Warboss has bashed his way into my list). However, there are times that my deffkopta has been priceless. In generally, I view a 70 point deffkopta as a medium risk/high reward situation.

Also, (and this is more important than many think) the deffkopta gives up a kill point. Easy.

4) The Buzzsaw isn't necessary for this tactic to work. Deffkoptas still have furious charge, so you'll be getting 3 attacks which if you get a "6" on you can glance a vehicle. Are you going to wreck the vehicle? No, but you can get lucky and immobilize it or stun it on turn 1. You've also only invested 45 pts in the tactic intstead of 70, and the enemy is going to be forced to deal with your Deffkopta in his lines one way or another.

That just seems silly. If you're taking a kopta, then 25 points for a swing of 3 points of strength is just too good to pass up. Plus you get to ignore armor saves, which is pretty dang nice when tying up long fangs/devastators.

It's not a BAD tactic by any means. Wrecking a skimmer turn 1 is awesome. However, I'd rather have a unit of 2 Deffkoptas with Rokkits and maybe a buzzsaw on one of them. This unit has survivability, and I CAN use it for this tactic if I really want to, but if not, I can outflank or do a normal deployment for hit and run attacks. It's much more flexible, and not a dedicated suicide unit.

I don't like duos (or trios) for one reason: leadership tests. Lose one and you're taking a test on that horrible leadership. Leave them on the table turn 1 and you might lose the entire squadron to a single failed cover save and the ensuing leadership test.

I agree with everyone who disagreed with me. There are lots of viable reasons for trying the suicide Buzzsaw / Rokkit Kopter. I never said this was a BAD tactic. If / When you pull it off, I'm sure it's great.

I suppose it's the Risk / Reward factor for me which is why I don't use this tactic. I prefer to spend my points on more reliable units.

Maybe one day I'll come up with a list that incorporates 2 Buzzsaw Kopters just so I can try the tactic out for myself in a few games.

Q: during the first turn of the game does a scout move count as the preceding movement phase when working out an saves from shooting, for example the 3+ save from turbo boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat against vehicles. (P76)
A: Yes

Like I said earlier, when they say turn without saying "game turn" (and order is important, so "turn of the game" doesn't count) it means player turn. Page 9 of the main rule book.

Does the scout special rule specifically say that it counts as movement phase? No. The FAQ only deals with the first player turn.

We of course could get into the whole RAW RAI argument of course. Of course we could get into the errata vs FAQ... Or we could just say that getting your cake and eating it too is a bit unreasonable... Wanting to gain the benefits for turbo boosting, using the unit as normal and get no draw backs? Yeah.... don't be "that guy" Good way to not get another game (or in comped events to tank your sport score)

Just put it down to GW being terrible at writing rules and rarely updating FAQs. Be sensible about resolving it.