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So a defiler can take 2 close combat arms for +2 attacks. In a game today my lootas double wep destroyed a defiler & I took off both DCCW. I followed this with an assault from my nob bikers and the argument arose.

Are the close combat arms DCCW. My argument is that it says "Close Combat Arms" and not "Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons".

His argument was basically RaI "Well close combat weapons on walkers are DCCW".

I countered with my usual "I'm sorry but I play by the rules" and was subsequently called a "Rules lawyering bottom orifice"

As it has not been FaQ I was wondering what you guys think.

Wish I had my CSM Codex with me... I think it explains what the weapons count as. I've always assumed they were dreadnought type weapons.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Are the close combat arms DCCW. My argument is that it says "Close Combat Arms" and not "Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons".
His argument was basically RaI "Well close combat weapons on walkers are DCCW".

The codex is pretty clear on this - a defiler has 2x DCCWs.

The upgrade arms are "close combat arms" which grant +1A.

So, if you took both the DCCWs off then it still get's the +1 or 2 attacks from any close combat arms it may have but it no longer gets the benefit of a DCCW (so it's now S6 with no power weapon).

I belive Scott is right, the codex does not refer to the extra arms as DCCW. The Rulebook makes this alittle muddy thought, if you read the box about DCCW on page 73

The "close combat arm" is not even a CCW - it simply grants +1A.

Shas'O Dorian did you look at your friends Chaos Codex and read it clearly?

In the Chaos Codex Pg 101, under Chaos Defiler entry it says, "Wargear: Two Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapons (extra attack already included in the profile above)...The Heavy Flamer can be replaced with one of the following: Close Combat Arm (+1 Attack)...Reaper Autocannon can be replaced with one of the following: Close Combat Arm (+1 Attack).

Notice that the extra Close Combat Arms do not count as anything they simply give it +1, or in this case, +2 attacks which are taken using the Defilers Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapons Strength. So the Defiler would then get 5/6 on the charge at Strength 10 ignoring Armor saves. Since you blew 2 of them off he would then only get his base attacks but they would still be at Strength 10 because of the Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapons. You would need 4 weapons destroyed, in this case, to make it Strength 6 not ignore armor saves anymore.

Sanguinis wrote: Since you blew 2 of them off he would then only get his base attacks but they would still be at Strength 10 because of the Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapons. You would need 4 weapons destroyed, in this case, to make it Strength 6 not ignore armor saves anymore.

Why? He can choose which weapons to remove. The DCCWs can be removed first. The defiler will still get it's +2A but without the benefits of a DCCW.

Ah good point Scott-S6, I was merely using the OP's example that he chose to blow off the 2 Close Combat Arms and not the DCCW's.

But yes he could very well have taken off the 2 DCCW's. Then the defiler would lose 1 attack for losing the 2 DCCW's but would then gain +2 for the Close Combat Arms for a total of 4 attacks/5 on the charge, but at Strength 6 armor saves allowed.

The OP's example was blowing off both DCCWs.

Sanguinius yes I did read the codex. I thought that was apparent as I quoted what both entries were, in fact I used the wording of the codex in my argument.

Also in the second sentence of my post I state I took off both DCCW. Please read more carefully before posting inflamatory remarks based off misinformation.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:His argument was basically RaI "Well close combat weapons on walkers are DCCW".

Going by the Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons rules entry in the rulebook, he would be correct. Close combat weapons on walkers are counted as Dreadnought close combat weapons.

But, as Scott-S6 pointed out, the close combat arms on the Defiler aren't listed as close combat weapons. They're just arms that grant +1 attack.


Also, for what it's worth, this sort of statement:

I countered with my usual "I'm sorry but I play by the rules"

... is bound to get your opponent riled, and I'm not at all surprised by the response you say you received to it.

Dorian: point pout to your opponent that only DCCWs aere DCCWs; there are currently several Walker arms that are not DCCWs: Blood Angels codex has several and the Ironclad Dread can have a regular old Chainfist(does everthing the DCCW arm does except for 2d6 armor penetration and strikes at I1; you know, a Chain fist).

Also note that the Deff dread Does buy additional DCCWs; not just Close combat arms.