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Hi there,

A friend of mine asked me to play CSM on the next tournament (well, he defied me to play CSM rather than my usual Vanilla Marines list). I'm really interested to begin a CSM army (Hakkanor FTW) and so... I accepted.

The only problem here is that... I don't have a clue about competitive Chaos.

Here's my list, which i wanted to be fast and deadly (Blitzkrieg style). And man, there's A PLASTIC DEMON PRINCE WITH WINGS!

HQ:
Demon Prince
MoS, Wings, Lash
155

HQ:
Demon Prince
MoS, Wings, Lash
155

Troops:
Khorne Berzerkers (6)
Personal Icone, Skull Champion with Power Weapon and Meltabombs, Rhino
201

Troops:
Khorne Berzerkers (6)
Personal Icone, Skull Champion with Power Weapon and Meltabombs, Rhino
201

Troops:
CSM (6)
Melta, Asp.Champion with Power Fist, Rhino
165

Troops:
CSM (6)
Melta, Asp.Champion with Power Fist, Rhino
165

Elites:
Chosen CSM (5)
3 Meltas, 2 Flamers, Rhino with combi-melta
175

Elites:
Chosen CSM (5)
3 Meltas, 2 Flamers, Rhino with combi-melta
175

Heavy Support:
Obliterator (2)
150

Heavy Support:
Obliterator (2)
150

Heavy Support:
Obliterator (2)
150

TOTAL : 1842

I laughed when I leared that the basic CSM didn't even have "Fearless" (I mean, they live with DEMONS, how can they be afraid of something?). That's the main reason why I put Icon of Chaos Glory almost everywhere. I also put some Personal Icons on the Berzerkers so my Obliterators don't get destroyed If I don't go first.

I don't know if the Berzerkers have they place here, but I really like them (WS 5, I 5, AV 3+ and 3 Attacks is awesome for 21 points).

Please critizise !

I think this list is super...classic rhino rush...melta's to get the squishies out...berserkers to pound them into oblivion...with that being said here are some of my thoughts...the demon prince seems way out of place...with everything else in a rhino or deep striking it will get torrented by turn 2 or sometimes turn 1...personally with the flavor of the list as it is...I would change it out for Kharn...or a standard lord...also generally I like to have one unit designated to sit back and cover an objective...if that is your pref. also, then I would change 2x flamers in one of the CSM squads to a heavy weapon...like a lascannon...If the rhinos are all meant to charge the enemy you could get rid of the combi'meltas and get some powerfists for the zerkers...just my two cents...good luck...

Are the icons of Chaos glory and the personal icons worth it?

I really like the DP, it can hide behind a Rhino or between two of them and cover them pretty well. And then, he can assault a unit which is really far with the OP LASH

I don't like PF on the Berzekers, because it would waste their high I.

And for the unit designated to cover an objective, I think it would stay in a Rhino next to it with 2 Flamers. If the Rhino is destroyed, they can hide behind it waiting to burn the opponent when he approaches.

But yeah, some Lascannons would be nice.

Any other thoughts?

I like to give Bezerker champions power weapons. 5 ini 5 power weapon attacks is awesome, and can really break the enemy.

Yeah, I think I'll add some Power Weapons just in case of Assault Terminators (because 6*4 attacks is enough to deal with anything but high AV like Terminators).

There's nothing more to change? I will begin to paint this army this evening, so I really wait some serious critics (I'm really fond of WYSIWYG, so it's important to tell me if there's ANY default here).

I'll edit the list later.

You could drop a chosen squad to beef up the Bezerker squads with more troops, and replace the flamers on the CSM to meltas. And you could add in another melta to the chosen for the token 5 special weapons in one squad.

Or you could drop a chosen an add in another DP.

I already have enough Meltas, isn'it? I need some tools to deal with hordes, I don't think that replacing flamers by meltas is that good TBH.

Yeah, I really hesitate between 1 DP and 3 Chosen Squads and 2 DP and 2 Chosen Squads. If I choose the second one, I could add some Power Weapons.

You could consider a lash sorceror for your hq. Although he doesn't kick ass in close combat, he can hang out in one of the berserker squads and lash through the top hatch, making him more durable. Nice list none the less.

List edited. 2 DP and 2 Chosen Squads instead of 1 DP and 3 Chosen Squads seems better, the duality tends to protect one or to scatter ennemy's firepower.

I don't like the sorcerer that much :S

Up!

Is this list competitive? Should I add some Power Weapons or something?

If you can use the lash twice you should be able to mislead one or two units.
Either move them back or crowd them together.
Then you can shoot them with template weapons,
but you have only two (plasma cannons).

Not a bad list. I'd go 2 Melta 2 Flamer on the chosen & have them outflank personally. 4 melta is nice but if your opponent is already out of their vehicles / you need to get them off an objective in cover.

I'm also not a huge fan of 10 man squads. I'd drop 4 marines from each & change those flamers into meltas. Remove the dozer blades from all but the zerkers (How often are you really going through dangerous terrain, and even then it's only 1/6 chance to immobilize). Also drop the combi meltas, with meltas in the squad they are no longer needed. This should free up 150 points if my math is correct.

145 of that will buy you:
6 CSM
Melta
IoC
Rhino


Now you still have an extra 35 points to play with if you took my advice on the chosen which can be used however you wish.

I'm also not a fan of dual lash like everyone else. I find MoN / Warptime much better but with 2 squads of zerkers I'm assuming you are using lash so that they can get the charge.

I'm a bit skeptical of the Princes too, but if it's about the models, it's about the models.

Dozer blades work only when moving 6" or less. In other words, they are a waste of five points.

The Skull Champs need a power something. Your choice. With squads so small, power weapon might be best.

Personally, I wouldn't field big squads of CSM without an Asp. Champ with a power fist. Champs can also use combi-weapons with their fists.

pzbw7z wrote:Dozer blades work only when moving 6" or less. In other words, they are a waste of five points.

Rosarius, be sure to check all the CSM ... 'quirks' - ?
I'd assumed that CSM had much the same wargear as SM. It was a small surprise that they don't have ATSKNF, their dozerblades are crappy as pzbw7z pointed out.

I'd definitely advocate a PW for the Skull Champion, MBs too, just in case he gets caught by a Dread or some-such.

List edited. I didn't finish the list, because I don't know if my Chosens are better in Rhinos or outflanking. If they don't need Rhinos, I could add some combi-melta pretty much everywhere and a squad of 6 CSM.

Is that better? I mean, is that good?

i would swap 1-2 troops for 2 more oblits.
how are you going to use your chosen?
like a anti infantry or like an anti tank?

That's pretty much the answer I need : how to use my chosens? I don't know if they're better outflanking or in Rhinos, if they're better (IN MY LIST, NOT IN GENERAL) with 2 flamers/2 meltas or with anything else.

I heard that Vindicators are better in my list (2 Lash Princes + Vindicator FTW).

vindis are very good in combination with lash princes.

as for your chosen i would use them as anti tank. 4 meltas in a rhino x 2 and go!!

that way you can use your oblits for crowd control, thus covering both aspects.

Yeah, that's what I thought : Rhinos > Outflanking. But I'm not sure if 4 meltas are better than 2 meltas and 2 flamers (I already have a lot of meltas).

So... Vindicators or Obliterators?

well i think that vindis will stick nicely with your list, but you should try both and see what works and what doesnt.

Rosarius wrote:Yeah, that's what I thought : Rhinos > Outflanking. But I'm not sure if 4 meltas are better than 2 meltas and 2 flamers (I already have a lot of meltas).

No, no no. They outflank IN rhinos. This gives them a 24" threat with their meltas instead of an 18" threat. Much better. Also don't put all your eggs in one basket. 2 Melta 2 Flamer. If your oblits did their job popping open transports then what good is the 4 meltas? 2 is more than sufficient for tank killing. The flamers will help much more after the enemy is out of their transports / is in cover on an objective / is Tyranids / is not a mech list.
Also if you take vindis drop the zerkers. Lash has 2 uses. 1.) Pulling things into assault range for the zerkers. 2.) Clumping things together for vindicators. Pick what you want to do with your lash & do it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rockabill-gr wrote:i would swap 1-2 troops for 2 more oblits.

This makes no sense. 2/3 of all games are objectives. I have won games simply because my opponent brought 2 min squads of troops & brought the heavy artillery. I kill those squads and you CAN'T win.

Thanks a lot Shas'O Dorian I thought "outflanking" meant "outflanking without rhinos" in this case (don't know why).

Anyway, I don't know WHERE to put PF and Power Weapons.

I think that the berzerkers are great now, but I don't know if giving the CSM a PF is that great, because it costs 40 points :S

At the moment your list is a bit wierd because you have lash but a very small ability to do damage with such small zerker squads.

I played a 2000 point Emperors Children army with two vindicators and a single lash sorc, I would have rathered two though.

I also noticed that Defilers are far better when used with lash due to their awesome range.

If you have Oblits use combat chosen with power weapons.

If you use Defilers or Vindicators use chosen with the melta/flamer combo.

ICOG is pointless IMO as the Champions LD 10 is sufficient enough.

Personally I have found plague marines to be almost unkillable with T(5) and a 3+ and then a 4+ save.

Zerkers are excellent with Kharn in a rhino.

You also may want to consider predators as they are dirt cheap for what they offer, you can have the shooty one with heavy bolters and an autocannon or the tank killer with all Lascannons.
At this points limit I suggest Power Fists and bigger squads

Well,

I tried the list, and it works pretty well. The DP can hide behind Rhinos and get a 4+ save. The lashes are awesome : they can help the Berzerkers to charge, they can attract some units in Rapid Fire range, they can kite some dangerous assault units, ...

The obliterators are good coupled with Icons, but there's a major problem with them : if I don't go first, they stay in Reserve. If they stay in reserve, they Deep Strike near an Icone and fire with Meltas. So... I don't have any long range fire during the first turn.

I played vs DE and get destroyed because I didn't have obliterators to deal with them. And if the obliterators were there, they would have been ... obliterated!

Remember that you can also use your Rhinos as shields for the Oblits on deployment. Two oblits can completely hide behind a Rhino, and even if your opponent manages to get a Vehicle Explodes result, you'll still have a cover save from the squad in the crater.

What was the final version of the list? You've got 1718 as the total, above.

MoS and lash is godly; but if you run across Njail, a hood or eldar your lash is done, i like MoK and wings because the 5 A is forever.

Yeah, I also think that MoK or MoT could be better IN SOME CASES, but I'll stay with MoS + Lash, we can't have everything

That's not my final list, I just wanted some feedback before I make the final one.

So, Icon of Chaos Glory or not?

I love IoCG, but I use it not only for the morale re-roll, but also as a teleport homer (for Oblits or Termies) and for summoning daemons. Since you don't have Termies or LDs, it's not as compulsory for you. Still, 40pts is not that many to both reinforce your LD and to ensure a safe drop for the Oblits in games when you do DS them.

Yeah, I'll stay with the IoCG and the Personal Icons.

Now, what should I take to reach 1850? 2 more obliterators? One more chosen squad?

I think it's a pretty balanced list :

-long rang fire : obliterators
-mid rand fire : chosens, CSMs, obliterators
-countercharge : berzerkers, DPs, chosens
-disruption : DPs, chosens (outflanking)
-objectives : 4 troop choices

The big weakness is certainly the KP. I've 6 Rhinos, which mean 6 "free" KP if I don't play smart.

Mixing special weapons in the Chosen units is a no-no. Meltas work against tanks while flamers peel the paint work, against hordes flamers kick ass meltas kill two max. Take all the same special weapon.

Increase Obliterators