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So this question is for those who run Ratlings or have faced these little guys.



1. I was wondering what is the optimal size for a squad of these little guys?

2. What consideration should I be taking into account if I take a large squad or a small of ratlings ?

1) 5

2) It's not whether you should be taking a large or a small squad of Ratlings. What you need to be thinking about is *why* you want them. Do you want them to put wounds on MCs or to pin squads? If the former, then there are far better ways to do so elsewhere in the IG codex. If the latter, then you really need to consider spending the points on a full PBS so if the Ratlings DO cause a wound, you're almost guaranteed a pinned squad.

L. Wrex

1) 3 actually. =P

1.) zero

Ratlings do two things: wound on 4+ regardless of toughness, and cause pinning checks.

Given the amount of fearless and rerollable leadership out there, the odds of you successfully pinning anything are pretty low. The only things that you might ever get to fail a pinning test also happen to be the kinds of things that are easily destroyed by things like lasguns.

As for wounding on 4+, I'd direct your attention to either the autocannon, which wounds most things on 2+ and gets twice the shots, or the missile launcher, which virtually always wounds on 2+ and ignores armor saves, and has this nasty tendency to cause instant death ("catch, ahriman!").

That ratlings are the most cost effective way to field sniper rifles does not alone make it worth taking them. Usually, the only time it's worth taking sniper rifles is if you have a few points to throw around and you're sick of throwing even more flamers in (or, in rare cases, in officer squads that you know you want to be stationary).

Ailaros wrote:1.) zero

Frankly, this.

Ratlings aren't that great. The new sniper rules mean that they just don't score the wounds to justify their cost any more.

Ratlings are fine. BS 4 with Stealth and Infiltrate for 10 points a model. I like it. The problem is that sniper rifles are crap for so many reasons. Even costing 5 points isn't enough to save them. They need to wound on 3+ and/or be rerollable, and then have a good base AP (maybe rend on 5 or 6? there's precedence), and an increased range. Oh how much I wish they were worth playing. /lament

Heck, ratlings would be worth it if they had grenade launchers, even.

MekanobSamael wrote:

Ailaros wrote:1.) zero

Frankly, this.

Ratlings aren't that great. The new sniper rules mean that they just don't score the wounds to justify their cost any more.

I've seen this claim made multiple times, and it's false. The new sniper rules are *better* than the old ones. Whether Ratlings are worth it or not has nothing to do with the change in sniper rules from 3rd/4th to 5th.

So which edition was the golden age when they hit and wounded on 2s? Because that's pretty much what they'd need to be nice again.

So I guess the verdict is, no ratlings at all. Everybody has some great points and I appreciate the feedback. My concerns and ideas are below

1. IG has very few options to infiltrate, kind of a cheap points way to divert enemy fire power or outflank?

2. The idea of having a squad of these little guys popping up in cover or reinforcing a flank of my gun line seems like a good idea.

a. They'll almost always hit their target

b. They'll force dice rolls which is always a good thing, a guy can get lucky sometimes, fire enough times and somethings gonna go down.

c. If deployed correctly, they could be a possible threat, forcing the enemy to either split his forces or show his flank to me.

Let me know what you guys think of course, especially if anyone thinks there are better infantry units or tactics for doing a,b,c,

Ailaros wrote:
That ratlings are the most cost effective way to field sniper rifles does not alone make it worth taking them. Usually, the only time it's worth taking sniper rifles is if you have a few points to throw around and you're sick of throwing even more flamers in (or, in rare cases, in officer squads that you know you want to be stationary).

When it comes to not being worth it, I must respectfully disagree. I'm never in a situation where I run out of Elite slots, and they have two things going on for them: They put wounds on MCs, and they're cheap. They do have some glaring disadvantages though. Horribly fragile, need babysitting, and they're a largely static unit. With the number of lascannons I typically have, MCs are never a HUGE issue for me, so I don't typically take them, but I would suggest that Ratlings CAN be useful, but are not ALWAYS useful.

perezba7 wrote:So I guess the verdict is, no ratlings at all. Everybody has some great points and I appreciate the feedback. My concerns and ideas are below

1. IG has very few options to infiltrate, kind of a cheap points way to divert enemy fire power or outflank?

2. The idea of having a squad of these little guys popping up in cover or reinforcing a flank of my gun line seems like a good idea.

a. They'll almost always hit their target

b. They'll force dice rolls which is always a good thing, a guy can get lucky sometimes, fire enough times and somethings gonna go down.

c. If deployed correctly, they could be a possible threat, forcing the enemy to either split his forces or show his flank to me.

Let me know what you guys think of course, especially if anyone thinks there are better infantry units or tactics for doing a,b,c,

1: They're sort of an annoyance, but most armies can afford to ignore them from that point of view. Worst case, they'll pay attention to them just long enough to toss a couple wounds on them then watch them run off the table.

2: They'd mostly only work in a gunline, but gunlines don't capture objectives. Keep that in mind.

a: Let me fix this for you: They'll almost always hit their target (more than they miss). BS4 is still a 33% miss chance. Really, when we start counting WOUNDING also, it becomes about a 33% wounding chance per shot.

b: All the talk of pinning amuses me. I take them for the rending, not the pinning. Surprised no one has brought that up yet.

c: They're not pathfinders. Your opponent can afford to ignore them. If you manage to get someone to actually divert a meaningful amount of forces toward them, then enjoy it while it lasts, because they won't make that same mistake twice. As far as showing you their flank, I assume you're referring to vehicles. To get a glance/pen AV 10, you have a 2/3*1/6*1 (even on 1 on d3 you still get a 10) = 11.1%

That doesn't include getting something meaningful on the vehicle damage chart.

0.

If you insist on running them at all, then 3, as it's the number closest zero.

Of the reasons listed in this thread for running them, none is very compelling.

perezba7 wrote:1. IG has very few options to infiltrate, kind of a cheap points way to divert enemy fire power or outflank?

Creed, Al'Rahem, Harker, penal legionnaires, stormtroopers and scout sentinels also do this sort of behavior. The difference is that they are actually likely to have an impact when they arrive.

perezba7 wrote:a. They'll almost always hit their target

As mentioned, they still have to wound.

perezba7 wrote:b. They'll force dice rolls which is always a good thing, a guy can get lucky sometimes, fire enough times and somethings gonna go down.

Obviously them being pinned is better than them not being pinned, but you have to measure likeliness of this happening against cost. Yes, they're cheap, but they're also REALLY unlikely to get something to fail a pinning check when it counts.

perezba7 wrote:c. If deployed correctly, they could be a possible threat, forcing the enemy to either split his forces or show his flank to me.

Unless your opponent just ignores them.

So, the real problem with ratlings is that they take up an elite slot, but they behave like a troops choice. The purpose of troops is to take up field position while putting out some reasonable damage. This is what ratlings do (well, poorly).

The whole point of elites slots is that they don't necessarily put out any more damage than their points in troops, but they bring something very different and unexpected to your guard list. Marbo and stormies, for example, appear out of nowhere wherever they want and kill something without your opponent having much say on the matter. Ogryn are like regular guardsmen except they're all but immune to small arms fire, and provide a surprising amount of durability compared to the regular troops. Meanwhile, taking a unit that can either shoot a battle cannon OR make space marines run off the table is something that's going to be more difficult for your opponent to counter.

Meanwhile, what special thing do ratlings bring? Nothing. In the end, they are a unit that sits in cover and plinks at stuff. Not only is the MO equal to a HWS, but the damage is comparable as well. As such, why take ratlings when you can take a HWS? There really isn't much reason.

While Ratlings with sniper rifles are better than Scouts with sniper rifles, their biggest weakness is their leadership. It is very easy to pin them and break them. While they are cheap, I'd rather take something more killy in the army.

Ratlings are good in whatever number of points you have left over when you make the real part of your list. They aren't terrible for what they do, which is fill points and infiltrate sniper riffles.

Infiltration keeps scout movements away, which is worth paying 30-60 points for, if you have them. Anything more than that and you start getting into the point value where you could take other units though.

35 points is a basic multilaser sentinel. And more useful than ratlings.

It's also flamers and meltabombs strewn about the rest of your list (or a 3x set of meltaguns).

Plus, a small squad of ratlings gives away an easy KP without even the benefit of being a scoring unit (or claiming KP before they die).

That ratlings can be useful does not mean they are ever the best choice for what to take.

There are times when I really wish I had 10 Ogryn, but that's not what I'll be taking day in and day out.

The weaknesses of ratlings has been pretty well explained, but I will add that IG do not lack for ways to spend points, even relatively small numbers.

Well all this has convinced me to not take ratlings.
All the points were valid and I really appreciate the feedback, great stuff.

Coming from a Tau perspective I see their main use is simply as an infiltrating unit, creating an 18 inch bubble to ward off scout bikers, scouting vendettas, scouting deff koptas is frankly worth 30 points. And KP is a concern still? In an IG army? Really? If you run into a KP game either use them to block scouts or simply reserve them and deploy them in a corner and never think about them again.