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this is a rule i propose (as a joke but i still think its a good idea) is called

No Sacrifice, No Victory

the reason i say only for swarm races is because they generally have huge ammounts of troops, being that Gaurd Commanders dont care and are willing to sacrifice millions of troops and not loose a nights sleep, rippers termagaunts etc etc are birthed in the trillions, and orks dont perticually care about about losses aslong as there boyz are "avin the gud fight", morally controlled races, such as space marines, daemon hunters, tau, eldar, well pretty much everyone else cares about loosing troops so wouldnt do it.

im not sure about necrons, really, the've been sleeping for billions of years and phase out and ressurect them selves.

If the squad (or walker) is in engaged in close combat, using barrage weapons only in your shooting phase, place the blast template over any member (friend or foe) in combat and resolve normally for your shooting, close combat and armour saves

[does not work on vehicles]

side note:

Maybe having to resolve for scattering from the impact or something like thing (incase they get sent flying)

The reason ive suggested this is because i was reminded of some ancient battles, in where the commander sends in the cheep militia and bombards them with arrows, explosives etc etc one good example was portrayed in the film Braveheart (the russians did it), and knowing about the imperial gaurds lack of morality it seems like something they would do (some of the books have this same example), but i havent seen this option anywhere and an example of use would be when orks overrun your defences and start snuggling up close with your gaurdsmen, preventing your autocannon from ratattating into the ork lines, so knowing your going to be screwed over you might as well sacrifice them and take the orks out with it

so what you think? suggestions welcome ^^

Meh.

I already lose guys fast enough WITHOUT plastering them with my own artillery.

At best, this ability is a wash, at worst, it just helps your opponents.

you might be right, but once in cc with gaurdmen (minus tau [got a funny story with 1 sargent and a tau squad]) your going to lose the fight anyway, unless you have 30 conscripts agaisnt a carnifex, then eventually your going to get enough 6's to poke it into a bloody pulp.

like i said i understand what you mean, but can you tell me if i explained it well enough to use in a (not so)friendly?

I'm with Ailaros on this, shooting your own troops just doesn't work for me. The point of getting into close combat with Swarm Races in the first place is either to feed a unit, or to be the one being a close combat in the first place.

I can see this really being abused though.

You charge a huge blob squad and then just shoot into it because the enemy has more models than you. You say this is only for swarm races, but it could be abused in many ways by those same armies.

true, and thinking about it there isnt much way to stop the abuse by limiting the rule because then it would make it fairly useless =/ but oh well it had a good start ^^ thanks guys and/or gals

Doesnt this happen anyway? when a barrage scatters onto your own troops in combat?

The Acolyte wrote:Doesnt this happen anyway? when a barrage scatters onto your own troops in combat?

Other than the fact that this is a proposal to allow shooting into combat. Scattering templates may affect engaged models but can in no way target them under normal conditions.

i know it couldnt target them normally, i also know its not a perfect rule ^^ but its something to think of and consider but i know it wouldnt be the normal scatter rule but i think it would be something like this;

- pass a leadership test
- place blast marker over any member in close combat (while in los)
- roll to hit (they could "accidentally" miss or the troops move in the chaos of battle)
- saves as normal (use walker side armour value)
(for those left alive both sides)
- roll to scatter, 1: no movement, 3-4, move with a -2 modifier to result 6, organs minced remove as casulty, roll for invunrable save

1 dice for each unit under the template, terminators, eavy' armored nobz/walkers unaffected etc etc (presuming they servive they are generally to heavy to get slung about)

if you roll a 5 presume they moved than 3" away from the epicenter and they return but have 0 attacks that turn
if you roll a 4 presume they moved than 2" away from the epicenter they get 1 attack at half strength (including power weapons)
if you roll a 3 presume they moved than 1" away from the epicenter thay get 1 attack at fullt strength (still disorintated)
the above rules are for all charatures including those with multi cc attacks following turn they can attack normally

to prevent rule abuse you could do the following "you can only be used from turn ## onwards if both sides agree" and can also follow "roll a dice each turn until either the turns you are playing, or the previous turns and the dice equal your chosen ##"



sorry if i get any unit types wrong. (orkz) but on that note, you wouldnt want to target your own terminators or nobz anyway, im trying to make this a "last chance" type of rule at

Okay, not it's just needlessly complicated. Furthermore, it's straying too far from the rulebook, as few (I can can name one) barrage units also have a leadership value, and it makes little sense to have models moving at the absolute last second to get out of the way of an incoming artillery shell.

Plus, I still don't see how this would be useful. If I want my squishies in close combat, then I dont' want them killed any faster, and if I don't want my squishies in close combat then it's easy enough to make them run away.

OR, allow shooting at CC engagements, any misses are allocated to the owners units, while all hits are conferred to your opponent. This makes bad shots(orks) hit their own units more often then not, and allows a few hits to get through.

However, a leadership test should be passed first, to represent the soldiers unwillingness to fire on their own troops.

Footsloggin wrote:OR, allow shooting at CC engagements, any misses are allocated to the owners units, while all hits are conferred to your opponent. This makes bad shots(orks) hit their own units more often then not, and allows a few hits to get through.

However, a leadership test should be passed first, to represent the soldiers unwillingness to fire on their own troops.

sounds like a better idea to be honest

Ailaros wrote:Plus, I still don't see how this would be useful. If I want my squishies in close combat, then I dont' want them killed any faster, and if I don't want my squishies in close combat then it's easy enough to make them run away.

its not always possible im afraid, hence the rule D: but it was a worthy attempt but i admit defeat, and unlike my troops (i would of won in my last match if my russ didnt detonate and take my auto cannon out [i got over run because my lasguns just wernt doing enough damage, yet the auto was kicking greenskin ass]) who seem to like marching into explosions from behind cover and still dieing x) so i thought id help them along.

oh well thank you anyway

This keeps coming up... and simply put... no, it won't work fairly. see below...

So my IG squad is sitting a little away from an IG blob squad of 50 in combat with a single grot.
The firing squad triggers its lascannon... 4+ to hit the grot... wait, what?
On the other hand... A single grot is in combat with 50 IG, the ork burna squad rolls up next to the combat... i wonder how many tightly packed IG i can fit under 1 template?

If you want firing into combat it has to be something complicated, no other way around it...
I'd ignore the following, it hurts my brain.

Firing into Combat
In times of great need or sheer desperation (or cunning strategical sacrifices) A commander of a force may order his own men to fire at a combat. To do this follow these steps.
1) When nominating a target for shooting, declare that your unit will fire into combat, and indicate which combat you wish to fire at. Normal LoS and range rules apply.
2) When firing into combat, due to the closely packed formation of the combatants all shots are at +1 to hit. Roll your dice as you normally would.
3) Take the unit strength of the targets, and work out a percentage for each unit compared to the total unit strength in the combat...
To work out unit strength count up the number of wounds on the starting profile of each model (more wounds usualy means a) bigger or b) more shiny things)
Anything that counts as a bike/jetbike, has a 2+ save or is on a base larger than 25mm adds 1 to its unit strength.
Montrous creatures count as double.
Walkers count as their front armour -4. (war walker =6, kan =7, normal dread =8)
Example 1: Chapter master on a bike, 6 marines and 4 terminators V's Ork warboss, 5 nobs and 2 killa kanz.
Unit strength of CM on bike = (wounds)3(bike, large base)+1 = 4
Unit strength of 6 marines = (wounds)6
Unit strength of 4 terminators = (wounds)4(large base, 2+ save)+4 = 8
Unit strength of Ork warboss = (wounds)3(large base)+1 = 4
Unit strength of 5 nobs = (wounds)10
Unit strength of 2 Killa kans = 14
Total unit strength = 4+6+8+4+10+14 = 46
To work out %, simply multiply each unit strength by (100/46) and round to nearest whole %
So... Unit strength of...
CM on bike = 9%
6 marines = 13%
4 termies = 17%
warboss = 9%
5 nobs = 22%
2 kans = 30%
Now roll a D100... to determine who you hit.
4) Roll to wound as normal
5) Allocate wounds and make saving throws, to represent the confusion of melee, every model recieves a 4+ cover save.
Important note. With regards to blast weapons and templates, simply count the number of models hit, then half that number and allocate as you would with normal hits in step 3.

Now try doing that with several units firing multiple shots, the whole reason this is not an option (i assume) is because it would take way to long, and become complicated, whereas the most recent edition is appearing to simplify alot of things.

ARRRRRRRRRRGH!
I'm not doing that every time i want to fire into combat... and there is no simple, but fair way of doing it.
Which is most likely why you can't do it in the first place!
A simple 5+/4+/3+ to hit certain targets just wont work most of the time as combats are never really even sided anyway, and it brings up the unfortunate situation described above before my post of death.

ok ok x) i admit defeat! it was worth a try ^^

thanks folks