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HQ:
Haemonculi – Venom Blade, Hexrifle : 80pts.

Troops:
Kabalite Warriors x10 – Dark Lance: 185pts.
--Raider – Night Shield
Kabalite Warriors x10 – Dark Lance: 185pts.
--Raider – Night Shield
Kabalite Warriors x10 – Dark Lance: 185pts.
--Raider – Night Shield

Elites:
Trueborn x3 – 3x Blaster: 146 pts.
--Venom – Splinter Cannon
Trueborn x3 – 3x Blaster: 146 pts.
--Venom – Splinter Cannon

Fast Attack:
Beast Masters x4, Khymerae x10, Razor Wings x4: 228pts.

Heavy Support:
Ravager – Night Shield: 115pts.
Ravager – Night Shield: 115pts.
Ravager – Night Shield: 115pts.

The Haemy gives the Beast Master unit his token and then buggers off and looks for things to snipe, he only has the Venom Blade to spend the 10 points. The rest should be obvious.

My issue is that it looks like what the old Codex could do, only a bit worse... Even with 15 lances vehicles in cover will stay standing longer than I would like, and many armies could likely outshoot me. Not really sure how to solve this.

That's similar to Dashofpepper's list. He's used msu units of warriors with blasters in Venoms fitted with dual cannons. Also 4 blasters with the Trueborns.

I like the idea of the venom mounted warriors generally. Just hoping the new models def come out for springtime!

I like the idea of the MSU warriors with blasters, so I may try swapping back and forth to see what works best. I also like the idea of foot DE lists, but it seems like you pay too much per lance that way.

As for looking like Dash's lists, he's a great player and I've read his posts for ideas on how to build things so it's little wonder my list looks similar.

Edit: Though expensive I wonder how a 9 bike Reaver squad with 3 lances would do? It wouldn't work in less than 2k, but at that stage they might actually be worth something.

Yep, he's one of the few people on here that give good advice with a good explanation to boot.

I considered a large warrior unit on foot with the Duke and a Haemo. Not sure what would be best to support such a unit or how best to field foot DE generally.

If I was going with Duke it would be for Trueborn with Splinter Cannons in a Venom with cannons, and the remaining three would have Carbines. I think that's the best use of the special poison.

Carried up from my edited post:

Though expensive I wonder how a 9 bike Reaver squad with 3 lances would do? It wouldn't work in less than 2k, but at that stage they might actually be worth something. Thoughts?

Norade wrote:If I was going with Duke it would be for Trueborn with Splinter Cannons in a Venom with cannons, and the remaining three would have Carbines. I think that's the best use of the special poison.
I really like that Idea. Only the squad of trueborn would get the poison bonus though. I had though about putting him in a squad of 10x Trueborn and just leave them vanilla, but upgrade 1 to a Dracon and stick them in a raider with a splinter rack. The range is cut by 6" really since you'll almost always be moving but it would be one nasty squad once it got up close. 16 shots since they rapidfire at 3+ that Re-roll to hit, and 3+ to wound. You've got the Duke and Dracon as heavy hitters for when you get shot down and the trueborn have 2 base attacks. I think the shardcarbines and splinter cannons come out better though. They would just be more expensive.
Carried up from my edited post:

Though expensive I wonder how a 9 bike Reaver squad with 3 lances would do? It wouldn't work in less than 2k, but at that stage they might actually be worth something. Thoughts?
It would probably do pretty well. The only issues you may have with it are keeping it in cover while you take your shots due to the size of the squad and models. You can just use turboboost and maintain a 3+ cover save until you get into position. The turn you shoot though, 5+ saves aren't worth squat. Squads of 6 with 2 heat lances work pretty well at lower point values. I've been playing with scourges and reavers to try and compare the two. The reavers tend to be more consistent, but the scourges come out a little cheaper(2 heat lances to 5 models vs 2 to 6) and tend to last a little longer due to their ghostplate. I think the main reason the scourges haven't been more consistent is b/c I've been trying to deep strike them and my scatter die hates me. You get a bulls eye within 9" of enemy armor and it's as good as done though.

If I was going with Duke it would be for Trueborn with Splinter Cannons in a Venom with cannons, and the remaining three would have Carbines. I think that's the best use of the special poison.

I really like that Idea. Only the squad of trueborn would get the poison bonus though. I had though about putting him in a squad of 10x Trueborn and just leave them vanilla, but upgrade 1 to a Dracon and stick them in a raider with a splinter rack. The range is cut by 6" really since you'll almost always be moving but it would be one nasty squad once it got up close. 16 shots since they rapidfire at 3+ that Re-roll to hit, and 3+ to wound. You've got the Duke and Dracon as heavy hitters for when you get shot down and the trueborn have 2 base attacks. I think the shardcarbines and splinter cannons come out better though. They would just be more expensive.

I was hoping the Venom would get it as well, but it doesn't so math hammer time.

Venom Unit Cost (5x Trueborn [2x Splinter Cannons, 3x Carbine]: 170
Raider Unit Cost (8x Trueborn [1x Splinter Cannon, 1x Drachon [Agoniser], Raider): 213

Venom Stationary @ 18":

Trueborn:
Splinter Cannons x2: 12 shots - 8 hits - 5.33 wounds
Splinter Carbines x3: 9 shots - 6 hits - 4 wounds

Venom:
Splinter Cannons x2: 12 shots - 8 hits - 4 wounds

Total wounds before saves: 13.33

Venom Moving @ 18":

Trueborn:
Splinter Cannons x2: 8 shots - 5.33 hits - 3.56 wounds
Splinter Carbines x3: 9 shots - 6 hits - 4 wounds

Venom:
Splinter Cannons x2: 12 shots - 8 hits - 4 wounds

Total wounds before saves: 11.56

Raider Stationary @ 12":

Trueborn:
Splinter Rifles x8: 16 shots - 10.67 hits - 7.11 wounds
Splinter Cannon: 6 shots - 4 hits - 2.667 wounds

Raider:
Darklance: 1 shot - .67 hits - 0.56 wounds

Total wounds before saves: 10.34

Looks like the Raider squad is better in CC and at tank busting, but worse at shooting and more expensive. Really either squad would look good though.

you could also swap the venom blade on the haemy for retro's on your venom's any IG player hates it when you deep strike behind his leman russ en blow it to pieces with the blasters.

That might not be a bad idea, I'll play test both ways and see what happens.

Personally I'd swap the warriors' Dark Lances for Blasters. 115 points for one lance shot is too much IMO. Plus they have a transport so unless that's sitting still they can't shoot their lance anyway.

If you want a quasi-Ravager consider 3 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances in a Raider. That's 3 lance shots at 156 (including Nightshields) opposed to 2 lance shots at 185.

Also if you do swap the Dark Lances for Blasters, I'd also give their Raiders Flickerfields instead of Nightshields, but that might just be personal preference.

Few things in this game are designed worse than the Hexrifle is. Quite frankly, it is a waste of points. Drop it and the Venom Blade, kit out each of the Venoms with dual Splinter Cannons. 12 extra poison shots> poison CC weapon on a unit you don't want fighting big things+a really bad sniper rifle.

Also, Flickerfields>Nightshields. Shrugging off 1/3 of the pens/glances you incur is something few other vehicles in the game have the luxury of getting.

asimo77 wrote:Personally I'd swap the warriors' Dark Lances for Blasters. 115 points for one lance shot is too much IMO. Plus they have a transport so unless that's sitting still they can't shoot their lance anyway.

If you want a quasi-Ravager consider 3 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances in a Raider. That's 3 lance shots at 156 (including Nightshields) opposed to 2 lance shots at 185.

Also if you do swap the Dark Lances for Blasters, I'd also give their Raiders Flickerfields instead of Nightshields, but that might just be personal preference.

The first swap would lower my alpha strike versus the lists that will tax me already, I also already have 2 Trueborn Blaster Boats and prefer the added troop choice. This may change with more play testing.

The Flicker Field versus Night Shield change is one that I was already going to make .

Few things in this game are designed worse than the Hexrifle is. Quite frankly, it is a waste of points. Drop it and the Venom Blade, kit out each of the Venoms with dual Splinter Cannons. 12 extra poison shots> poison CC weapon on a unit you don't want fighting big things+a really bad sniper rifle.

Also, Flickerfields>Nightshields. Shrugging off 1/3 of the pens/glances you incur is something few other vehicles in the game have the luxury of getting.

The Hex Rifle and weapon are likely enough to make the Haemy annoying enough that the enemy actually cares about it once he breaks off from the Beast Masters and if it kills an MC even once in 6 games it makes it points back. I may consider dropping the upgrades form retro thrusters on my Ravagers though.

I wouldn't have listed Splinter Cannons on my Venoms if I hadn't taken an extra one, see my Raiders and how they don't have Dark lance listed also see the points cost to show that I've already taken the extra 6 shots.

See above for Flicker Fields.

What you could do with your warriors if you want....

Make 3x squads
5x warriors 1x blaster in "raider" w/ flickerfield
for 390 points

and add another Trueborn Squad
5x Trueborn 2x Dark Lances for 110 points (Stick them in cover at the edge of your deployment with good firing lanes)

You lose 1 Dark Lance vs. the current build, and you maintain (3) 12" mobile Dark Lances on the raiders themselves, (2) stationary Dark Lances and add (3) blasters, giving you (2) more Dark matter weapons than you had, which are mobile 6". You also have 55 points to spare. That way, you can fire 5 dark lances every round rather than keeping your boats stationary to fire 6, and only 3 when you move your raiders.

The hexrifle isn't too shabby. It really needed a lower AP value to be really effective as most IC's and MC's will be able to take their normal saves against it ie. 2+ and 3+. If you can swing it, and it would require some unit swapping at the beginning of the game since you intend to pass the pain token to the beasties, you could equip the Haemy with a Shattershard. As long as you leave him in a boat, he should be relatively safe until it gets popped. He wouldn't be able to do much vs T5+ creatures, but anything T4 is a 33% chance dead and anything T3 is 50% dead. No cover, no saves, just dead.

Nice ideas, once I get more playtest time in this will be something I'll try.

Norade wrote:HQ:
Haemonculi – Venom Blade, Hexrifle : 80pts.

Meh. If all he is going to do is give a pain token away and then sort of poke around you don't need to spend money on a venom blade. You're paying 80 points for a pain token and a sniper - you could save 10 and buy flickerfields or something and it wouldn't weaken what he is doing and would strengthen the rest of the army.

Troops:
Kabalite Warriors x10 – Dark Lance: 185pts.
--Raider – Night Shield
Kabalite Warriors x10 – Dark Lance: 185pts.
--Raider – Night Shield
Kabalite Warriors x10 – Dark Lance: 185pts.
--Raider – Night Shield

I always get nervous at anyone who wants to try to run only 3 troop choices with DE at 1500. I try to run 5-6 at 1000. If you buy into the idea of MSU I really think you can do something smarter here, or at least expand on this part of the army. Blasters in Venoms lose you some alpha anti-mech but are able to take more advantage of speed, being aggressive around objectives, speed, and can be a solid threat to multiple target types...oh yes, and speed. What I see here is a mentality of camping objectives, and DE don't do that very well, nor should they (though we do it better than we used to but still...).

As a counter possibility to the above Warriors, a build I've toyed with is 5 Trueborn (5 just for wound allocation/morale finagling, you can always go smaller to save points if needed) 2 dark lances, Raider w. lance (and you can add night shields).
You get an extra lance shot and save 5 points compared to the above squads - now deploy them separate and have the Trueborn snipe at stuff while the Raider moves around 12" every turn while still firing and helping to provide cover/distraction for your other units. Win. Plus it's two things for the enemy to shoot apart to protect his vehicles, not one.

Elites:
Trueborn x3 – 3x Blaster: 146 pts.
--Venom – Splinter Cannon
Trueborn x3 – 3x Blaster: 146 pts.
--Venom – Splinter Cannon

Haven't gotten to try this particular build concept yet, but I'm bemused by it and others report stellar results. I approve.

Fast Attack:
Beast Masters x4, Khymerae x10, Razor Wings x4: 228pts.

If you believe in MSU than this unit is WTF acronyms for the win. You're basically taking a single large h2h threat and storming them across the board supported by 2 Venoms w. trueborns while the Warriors and Ravagers sit back and pop transports? Dropping these guys would open up a world of possibilities to you in assault, and most of them would better favor MSU as well as providing a more balanced force capable of engaging the enemy on a few different playing fields. Two small Wych squads in Raiders would only be slightly more expensive than this unit and could increase the amount of anti-tank you have as well as being able to lock down more enemy infantry.

Heavy Support:
Ravager – Night Shield: 115pts.
Ravager – Night Shield: 115pts.
Ravager – Night Shield: 115pts.

Can never complain about Ravagers, they are awesome covered in win sauce.

My issue is that it looks like what the old Codex could do, only a bit worse...

Good call.

Even with 15 lances vehicles in cover will stay standing longer than I would like, and many armies could likely outshoot me. Not really sure how to solve this.

I think the heart of your problem is the huge pile of beasts. You're functionally taking slower Wyches with a worse Hekatrix in order to get a 4++ save from shooting attacks. And, yes, they are slower, because on turn one all smart Wyches are inside a vehicle and move flat out 24" Also, don't focus on whether vehicles are 'still standing' focus on whether they are 'still shooting this upcoming opponent's turn' Once you've managed that you should move on to your next target of priority. I think the solution to the problems you are worrying about entail a full re-concept of your list as currently stands. In a competitive stance you don't have enough troop choices, and if you worry that you need more anti-tank it's kinda silly to be sinking so many points and devoting your HQ to making a h2h deathstar unit.

Hope that helps somewhat,
Thor.

Thor665 wrote:
Meh. If all he is going to do is give a pain token away and then sort of poke around you don't need to spend money on a venom blade. You're paying 80 points for a pain token and a sniper - you could save 10 and buy flickerfields or something and it wouldn't weaken what he is doing and would strengthen the rest of the army.

He's also there to make opponents that don't know much about him flinch a bit and maybe spend extra firepower on him. He's one of the choices that I'm honestly most iffy about.

I always get nervous at anyone who wants to try to run only 3 troop choices with DE at 1500. I try to run 5-6 at 1000. If you buy into the idea of MSU I really think you can do something smarter here, or at least expand on this part of the army. Blasters in Venoms lose you some alpha anti-mech but are able to take more advantage of speed, being aggressive around objectives, speed, and can be a solid threat to multiple target types...oh yes, and speed. What I see here is a mentality of camping objectives, and DE don't do that very well, nor should they (though we do it better than we used to but still...).

As a counter possibility to the above Warriors, a build I've toyed with is 5 Trueborn (5 just for wound allocation/morale finagling, you can always go smaller to save points if needed) 2 dark lances, Raider w. lance (and you can add night shields).
You get an extra lance shot and save 5 points compared to the above squads - now deploy them separate and have the Trueborn snipe at stuff while the Raider moves around 12" every turn while still firing and helping to provide cover/distraction for your other units. Win. Plus it's two things for the enemy to shoot apart to protect his vehicles, not one.

I'd like to try the Blaster Venom idea with the warriors a bit and see how that shakes out for me before I get too drastic with things. That said looking at the beast unit I may have points for another troop choice.

Haven't gotten to try this particular build concept yet, but I'm bemused by it and others report stellar results. I approve.

It's fast and is the next cheapest antitank to Ravagers, what's not to like.

If you believe in MSU than this unit is WTF acronyms for the win. You're basically taking a single large h2h threat and storming them across the board supported by 2 Venoms w. trueborns while the Warriors and Ravagers sit back and pop transports? Dropping these guys would open up a world of possibilities to you in assault, and most of them would better favor MSU as well as providing a more balanced force capable of engaging the enemy on a few different playing fields. Two small Wych squads in Raiders would only be slightly more expensive than this unit and could increase the amount of anti-tank you have as well as being able to lock down more enemy infantry.

My thought with this was to Multi assault things such as Melta Vets once the Chimera is popped, it can also absorb Assault Termies fairly well though Wyches can also do that. It's one of those unit ideas that I've heard good things about and would like to try. If it doesn't work the way I'm hoping it will then it's going to be easy enough to change.

Can never complain about Ravagers, they are awesome covered in win sauce.

Oh yeah.

I think the heart of your problem is the huge pile of beasts. You're functionally taking slower Wyches with a worse Hekatrix in order to get a 4++ save from shooting attacks. And, yes, they are slower, because on turn one all smart Wyches are inside a vehicle and move flat out 24" Also, don't focus on whether vehicles are 'still standing' focus on whether they are 'still shooting this upcoming opponent's turn' Once you've managed that you should move on to your next target of priority. I think the solution to the problems you are worrying about entail a full re-concept of your list as currently stands. In a competitive stance you don't have enough troop choices, and if you worry that you need more anti-tank it's kinda silly to be sinking so many points and devoting your HQ to making a h2h deathstar unit.

Hope that helps somewhat,
Thor.

You do make good points, though I think I'd like to run this list a few times before tearing it down and starting again. If I'm lucky I might game a game in tonight with my roomie.