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Here is a list of questions. Please take whacks at them just to ensure that we are understanding how this works.

1. Is combat speed of a transport vehicle 0" < x <= 6" whether or not it is a fast transport?

2. Is cruising speed of a transport vehicle 6" < x <= 12" whether or not it is a fast transport?

3. If a transport vehicle moves at cruising speed, may embarked units disembark? Any difference with fast transports?

4. In the above question, can the embarked units fire the turn they disembark if the transport moved at cruising speed? (This question arises from the fact that there appears to be contradicting paragraphs in the rulebook. I don't have the page numbers handy, but there is a section labelled as Fire Points in the dedicated transport question that states that a unit may not fire from the vehicle if the vehicle moves at cruising speed. However, on the very next page, it states that passengers may disembark from a transport if it moved [it does not make any distinction between cruising speed or combat speed], although the unit that disembarks will also count as moved. That unit may fire as normal but count as moved in the Movement step, i.e., 12" range on rapid fire, no heavy weapons, etc.)

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes, No difference
4) Yes.

1) generally, yes. Except for Orks with Red Paint job, because they get an extra inch of bonus movement.

2) generally, yes. Except for Orks with Red Paint job, because they get an extra inch of bonus movement; and if the vehicle is on a road their entire movement where they gain an extra 6" of bonus movement(I.E. an Ork Trukk with RPJ on a Road can move 19" on that road and still have only moved at "Cruising Speed")

3)yes; and No. Yes units can embark/disembark on/from any vehicle moving(or going to move) at cruising speed.

4)Yes, and yes. Fire points and shooting from vehicles only matters for... shooting from the vehicle; getting out and shooting is fine. If you disembark you have moved, even if the vehicle hasn't moved yet(BRB Page 67, second bullet point under "Disembarking").

Hope that helps; and feel free to ask why any of the above answers are true.

Kommissar Kel wrote:2) generally, yes. Except for Orks with Red Paint job, because they get an extra inch of bonus movement; and if the vehicle is on a road their entire movement where they gain an extra 6" of bonus movement(I.E. an Ork Trukk with RPJ on a Road can move 19" on that road and still have only moved at "Cruising Speed")

Very important to note that fast vehicles do not benefit from roads (can't get the 6" bonus if you move Flat Out)

Scott-S6 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:2) generally, yes. Except for Orks with Red Paint job, because they get an extra inch of bonus movement; and if the vehicle is on a road their entire movement where they gain an extra 6" of bonus movement(I.E. an Ork Trukk with RPJ on a Road can move 19" on that road and still have only moved at "Cruising Speed")

Very important to note that fast vehicles do not benefit from roads (can't get the 6" bonus if you move Flat Out)

Page 70 of the BRB disagrees; last sentence of "moving fast vehicles".

Well spotted!

1. Yes
2. No (I'm curious why everyone is saying yes. I don't have my book on me but i'm pretty sure you can not fire from a vehicle moving at cruising speed with embarked units) No difference if its fast
3. Yes, No difference
4. Yes as moved

Uhhm, the question on number 2 is if cruising speed for transports is 6"<x"><12" even if it's fast, not if you can fire out of it.

So the answer is yes.

Ohhh...I miss undersood...I thought all the questions were if units inside the transports could fire out during those scenarios.

So, let me get this straight. A transport can move 12" and the embarked unit may not fire. HOWEVER, they can disembark and now they can fire? How does that make one iota of sense?

Game Balance.

Youre playing a game with 8 foot tall superhuman knights fighting space elves. "Realism" is not something you should be wondering about.

Youre playing a game with 8 foot tall superhuman knights fighting space elves. "Realism" is not something you should be wondering about.

Well, when you put it that way, then yeah.

Kurce wrote:So, let me get this straight. A transport can move 12" and the embarked unit may not fire. HOWEVER, they can disembark and now they can fire? How does that make one iota of sense?

they can just jump out... it's open topped...

they can just jump out... it's open topped...

My understanding that it does not matter if it is open-topped, fast, whatever. Marines can be buckled down in their seats in a Rhino cruising across the battlefield and they can just magically "appear" outside of the Rhino and start shooting. However, if they remained in the Rhino, they would still be buckled down in their seats and not be able to shoot.

It makes absolutely no difference whether you are open topped; assuming you are able to disembark, you can then attempt to shoot.

vehicles will see the biggest changes for 6th ed.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but what happens if 4 marines are in a rhino, one fires his plasgun, it gets hot, he dies, the group fails leadership... they fired, so they can't disembark to run away...

There are many many other examples

Kurce wrote:So, let me get this straight. A transport can move 12" and the embarked unit may not fire. HOWEVER, they can disembark and now they can fire? How does that make one iota of sense?

Having ridden in tin cans similar to rhinos (we called them M-113s), it makes a lot of sense.

Concentrating through a small hole is tougher than hitting the breaks and running out guns a blazing...

Either type of maneuver is extremely abstracted within the 40k rules. Driving up, jumping out, and firing can indeed be a lot easier than firing from inside an IFV while it is in rapid motion, at least if the vehicle isn't designed for it.

Its worth noting that the new FAQ allows vehicles on roads to embark/disembark units even if they moved over 12" all the way up to 18", as it state it counts as cruising speed for all purpoces.

FAQ wrote:Q: Does a vehicle that has used its extra move for being
on a road to move over 12” count as having moved at
cruising speed for all purposes, for example the embarking
and disembarking of troops? (p57)
A: Yes.

Kurce wrote:Here is a list of questions. Please take whacks at them just to ensure that we are understanding how this works.

1. Is combat speed of a transport vehicle 0" < x <= 6" whether or not it is a fast transport?

2. Is cruising speed of a transport vehicle 6" < x <= 12" whether or not it is a fast transport?

3. If a transport vehicle moves at cruising speed, may embarked units disembark? Any difference with fast transports?

4. In the above question, can the embarked units fire the turn they disembark if the transport moved at cruising speed? (This question arises from the fact that there appears to be contradicting paragraphs in the rulebook. I don't have the page numbers handy, but there is a section labelled as Fire Points in the dedicated transport question that states that a unit may not fire from the vehicle if the vehicle moves at cruising speed. However, on the very next page, it states that passengers may disembark from a transport if it moved [it does not make any distinction between cruising speed or combat speed], although the unit that disembarks will also count as moved. That unit may fire as normal but count as moved in the Movement step, i.e., 12" range on rapid fire, no heavy weapons, etc.)

Our gamming store has read and reread the rules dealing with fast vehicles. The key to understanding that Fast vehicles rule is to keep in mind that there are three levels of speed. Very simply put there is a speed conversion that people need to understand. The key terms are Stationary, Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, Flat Out. The rules book uses the term “just like” instead of creating a simple table. GW’s wording is terrible but the logic is consistent. We all agree that (pg70.) is defined as follows:

1. Stationary (Non fast Vehicle)is no movement of a vehicle (pivoting is not considered a move)
a. All weapons may fire from vehicle
b. An embarked squadron may shoot from fire points or disembark and shoot.

2. Stationary (Fast Vehicle) is able to move up to 6”
a. All weapons may fire vehicle
b. An embarked squadron may shoot from fire points or disembark and shoot.

3. Combat speed (Non Fast Vehicle) is able to move up to 6”
a. One main weapon may be fired and all defensive weapons may be fired
b. An embarked Squadron may shoot from fire points or disembark and shoot.

4. Combat speed (Fast Vehicle) is able to move 6” to 12”
a. One main weapon may be fired and all defensive weapons may be fired
b. An embarked Squadron may shoot from fire points or disembark and shoot.

5. Cruising Speed (Non Fast Vehicle) is able to move 6” to 12”
a. No weapons may be fired
b. An embarked Squadron may not shoot or disembark

6. Cruising Speed (Fast Vehicle) is able to move 12” to 18”
a. No weapons may be fired
b. An embarked Squadron may not shoot or disembark


___________________Stationary_______Combat Speed_____Cruising Speed______Flat Out
Non Fast Vehicle___________0”____________1” to 6”_________6” to 12”_______12” to 24”
Fast Vehicle__________1” to 6”____________6” to 12”_______12” to 18”_______18” to 24+”

That's an...interesting...interpretation. I can't see where it is based in the rules, though.

p. 57 defines stationary (stationary), combat speed (up to 6 inches), and cruising speed (more than 6 inches and up to 12).

p. 66 covers passengers shooting from fire points; passengers may not fire if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed.

p. 70 describes Fast vehicles, and adds a third level of speed called 'flat out' (more than 12 inches and up to 18). Additionally, Fast vehicles which move at Combat speed may fire all their weapons (just like other vehicles which remained stationary), and Fast vehicles moving at Cruising speed may fire one weapon, plus defensive, just like other vehicles which moved at Combat speed.

However, while Fast vehicles may fire while moving Cruising speed, they still moved at Cruising speed. The rules don't say "Fast vehicles act as if they moved at Combat speed when moving at Cruising speed." Passengers may not fire out of a transport which moved at Cruising speed, period.

First of all, there is a table on page 110 describing movement rates of vehicles and how they relate to shooting.

Beyond that, for any vehicle, it is much more appropriate to think of movement speeds as simply 0" (stationary), 0"-6" (combat), 6"-12" (cruising), and >12" (flat out). The reason you should always think of it this way (and not "fast vehicle stationary is 0"-6" ) is because there are a lot of other rules, wargear, and special rules that affect speeds of vehicles. Other rules (roads, RPJ, etc.) can affect those values, but in general that is the way it is, for non-fast and fast vehicles alike.

With that conversion table, you allow passengers on fast vehicles to fire when moving over 6"? That's not what the rules allow.

Lowkey - 4 is utterly incorrect. You CANNOT fire from ANY vehicle if you move 6"+, fast or not. (barring a special rule)

Janthkin wrote:That's an...interesting...interpretation. I can't see where it is based in the rules, though.

p. 57 defines stationary (stationary), combat speed (up to 6 inches), and cruising speed (more than 6 inches and up to 12).

p. 66 covers passengers shooting from fire points; passengers may not fire if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed.

p. 70 describes Fast vehicles, and adds a third level of speed called 'flat out' (more than 12 inches and up to 18). Additionally, Fast vehicles which move at Combat speed may fire all their weapons (just like other vehicles which remained stationary), and Fast vehicles moving at Cruising speed may fire one weapon, plus defensive, just like other vehicles which moved at Combat speed.

However, while Fast vehicles may fire while moving Cruising speed, they still moved at Cruising speed. The rules don't say "Fast vehicles act as if they moved at Combat speed when moving at Cruising speed." Passengers may not fire out of a transport which moved at Cruising speed, period.

It actually does on (pg70.) Look for the title "FAST VEHICLES FIRING" it is the second to last paragraph.

"Fast vehicles that move at cruising speed may fire a single weapon (plus all defensive weapons, just like other types of vehicle moving at combat speed)."

Lowkeyy wrote:

Janthkin wrote:That's an...interesting...interpretation. I can't see where it is based in the rules, though.

p. 57 defines stationary (stationary), combat speed (up to 6 inches), and cruising speed (more than 6 inches and up to 12).

p. 66 covers passengers shooting from fire points; passengers may not fire if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed.

p. 70 describes Fast vehicles, and adds a third level of speed called 'flat out' (more than 12 inches and up to 18). Additionally, Fast vehicles which move at Combat speed may fire all their weapons (just like other vehicles which remained stationary), and Fast vehicles moving at Cruising speed may fire one weapon, plus defensive, just like other vehicles which moved at Combat speed.

However, while Fast vehicles may fire while moving Cruising speed, they still moved at Cruising speed. The rules don't say "Fast vehicles act as if they moved at Combat speed when moving at Cruising speed." Passengers may not fire out of a transport which moved at Cruising speed, period.

It actually does on (pg70.) Look for the title "FAST VEHICLES FIRING" it is the second to last paragraph.

"Fast vehicles that move at cruising speed may fire a single weapon (plus all defensive weapons, just like other types of vehicle moving at combat speed)."

Yes, that's exactly what it says.

Fast vehicles that move at cruising speed fire like other types of vehicles moving at combat speed. That's a single, precisely defined exception to the normal vehicle rules. But they're still vehicles moving at cruising speed, and passengers may not fire from vehicles which move at cruising speed.

(I should also point out that embarked squads are free to disembark from vehicles moving at Cruising speed; your original post's language is a little ambiguous on that point.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lowkey - 4 is utterly incorrect. You CANNOT fire from ANY vehicle if you move 6"+, fast or not. (barring a special rule)

I understand that it's hard to believe because of the way that is presented in the Rules book. I felt like you before we did the research.
I'm just stating what is factually in the book. The term "Just like" is a phrase that means "equal to". I think they could have done a better job with their wording, but their intent is clear. I hope it helps someone. This topic can be a little divisive and I don't want to get anyone upset.

Lowkeyy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lowkey - 4 is utterly incorrect. You CANNOT fire from ANY vehicle if you move 6"+, fast or not. (barring a special rule)

I understand that it's hard to believe because of the way that is presented in the Rules book. I felt like you before we did the research.
I'm just stating what is factually in the book. The term "Just like" is a phrase that means "equal to". I think they could have done a better job with their wording, but their intent is clear. I hope it helps someone. This topic can be a little divisive and I don't want to get anyone upset.

"just like" is modifying "fire," not "everything to do with movement of a fast vehicle."

The terms comes with their own explanations. If Cruising speed is equal to Combat speed then it is equal in every way. Remember " Just like" means "Equal to". Embarked troops are able to fire and disembark at combat speed only. Cruising speed for Fast Vehicles are "Just Like" Combat speed for Non fast vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lowkey - 4 is utterly incorrect. You CANNOT fire from ANY vehicle if you move 6"+, fast or not. (barring a special rule)

Look in the Rule Book. It is on page 70.
It reads exactly as follows:

"Fast vehicles that move at cruising speed may fire a single weapon (plus all defensive weapons, JUST LIKE other types of vehicle moving at combat speed)"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

somerandomdude wrote:First of all, there is a table on page 110 describing movement rates of vehicles and how they relate to shooting.

Beyond that, for any vehicle, it is much more appropriate to think of movement speeds as simply 0" (stationary), 0"-6" (combat), 6"-12" (cruising), and >12" (flat out). The reason you should always think of it this way (and not "fast vehicle stationary is 0"-6" ) is because there are a lot of other rules, wargear, and special rules that affect speeds of vehicles. Other rules (roads, RPJ, etc.) can affect those values, but in general that is the way it is, for non-fast and fast vehicles alike.

With that conversion table, you allow passengers on fast vehicles to fire when moving over 6"? That's not what the rules allow.

You have to look at the definition of the terms Stationary, Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and Flat out. These terms layout what the vehicle and the embarked troops can do. This is why the writers of the Rule book do not go into specifics because these terms were defined earlier in the book.

Lowkeyy while I would personally love for your interpretation to be true, it is not. Embarked units do not function as defensive weapons for the transport. The passage you are quoting is specifically for the transports own defensive weapons not embarked troops. When push comes to shove there is no legal wrangling to suggest your point of view is correct. Sorry, but you're reading into the text trying to prove your point, I've been there and was wrong. Accept it and move on.