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I don't understand why, unless their heavy support options were filled, they would take the rifle dread over the AC/Las pred.

while the two twin linked auto shots are, iirc, are actually better at opening up AV 11, after that the las cannons start pulling WAY ahead. Technically the dread is, arguably, more "versatile", but only against infantry, and it's not nearly as good against heavier armored tanks.

I don't remember the rules for dreads/moving and firing, but I seem to remember them being able to move and fire two weapons (maybe that was last edition). In which case, I get that they're a little more mobile, something that would be much more game-changing if they didn't already have 48" weapons on them.

And Preds also have better front armour.

and are 5 points cheaper.

So what am I missing here?


I think this might belong in the tactics section.. Meant to put it there but made a mistake, that's what I get for late night trolling on Dakka

Definitely needs to be in Tactics.

I think people like it because it puts less pressure on Heavy Support for Anti-Transport. 4 TL AC shots are pretty horrifying against transports, IMO.

In a pinch they can double as anti infantry, its not optimal but its better than lascannons. They have enough shots of a strength to be deadly to transports which make up a lot of 40k today. with a LC you have the inevitable 1 to pen and thats it, one shot gone.

Well, 4 s7 shots twinned, versus 2s7 and 2s9 shots, not twinned. Some simple math will determine expected results.

4 twinned shots = 3.56 hits
2 shots = 1.33 hits

AV 10, Rifleman gets 1.78 pens and .59 glances
Combipred gets .44 glance and 1.77 pens
AV 11, Rifleman gets 1.19 pens and .59 glances
Combipred gets 1.33 pens and .44 glance
AV 12, Rifleman gets .59 pen and .59 glances
Combipred gets .89 pen and .44 glances

So we see here that even versus av10, the combipred is at least on par in terms of penetrating hits. There is a minor difference in the number of glances, that will amount to one extra glance in a 7 turn game. After that, the Combipred's extra penetrating hits against higher AVs make it superior

So the rifleman must stand on its other merits besides shooting in order to compete. Thus, in non-BA lists the rifleman can move and shoot where the pred can not, and the rifleman has superior side armor when hit by flanking attacks. Finally, the rifleman can lock units up in CC. Is this worth the extra cost and 1 less AV up front, combined with fewer penetrations? That depends on your list, but my money is with the combi-pred. As an added bonus, the ap2 s9 las cannon can instant gib units and take t5+ units FNP away, making it better versus non vehicle units with t4+ and better than a 4+ armor save (most units in the game)

The Dread has a lot easier time getting a coversave as well.

Pred, cause it's more versatile. Then again , it is just my favourite

I actually run one of both in my list.

They both run totally different role's though. The Rifleman walks forward, hugging cover and popping transports, either ending up tying a unit up in CC or contesting an objective. In contrast the predator sits back and tries to snipe off enemy tanks or heavy infantry.

Ga.

It doesn't use up a heavy support slot and it's much harder to assault.

The dread is less vulnerable to out flankers and assaults. The static Pred is more at the mercy of terrain.

Both are good, it just depends on what you need in your list. The 5 man dev squad with 4 heavies is going to give you the most shots per point ratio where they compete with preds. In this case, you can take 3 dev squads with 4 m.launchers and 3 rilfeman dreads and you have a solid shooting core for a list.

Just depends on the list as a whole.

Three of each.

That works, too!

3 preds and 3 dreads not only rhymes but forms a pretty damn solid shooting core.

Just want to throw this out there.... people who play with vindicators need to find their anti-light transport elsewhere. That's where Typhoons and Riflemen come in.

-Myst

Lots of valid points for both so far but I think alot of people choose the dread cause the Double FW autocannons just look sweet on the model!!

Haha, so true! I got three of them just for that reason! The fact that they kick ass is gravy.

Lord PoPo wrote:I don't understand why, unless their heavy support options were filled, they would take the rifle dread over the AC/Las pred.
So what am I missing here?

-the dread is more effective against transports, you are pretty much guarenteed to immobilize or better a armor 11 or 12 boat with autocannons, twin linked is kind of a big deal.
-the dread can, in a pinch, tie up infantry for a turn or 2, or the rest of the game in some cases.
-the dread can move and shoot all its weapons, and help out in assaults

Grundz wrote:-the dread is more effective against transports, you are pretty much guarenteed to immobilize or better a armor 11 or 12 boat with autocannons, twin linked is kind of a big deal.
-the dread can, in a pinch, tie up infantry for a turn or 2, or the rest of the game in some cases.
-the dread can move and shoot all its weapons, and help out in assaults

I have demonstrated that the dread is LESS effective against non av10 transports just a few posts up, and you are far, FAR from guarenteed to immob armor 11 or 12.
The dread can tie up infantry, true, but also infantry can tie up the dread. 8 gants can keep the dread locked up for a while, while a pred is not bothered.
The dread can move and shoot 2 tl autos, which is nice, but has less front armor. Thus, if what you need is pure shooting, the mobility of the dread is less of a plus.

DevianID wrote:
I have demonstrated that the dread is LESS effective against non av10 transports just a few posts up, and you are far, FAR from guarenteed to immob armor 11 or 12.
The dread can tie up infantry, true, but also infantry can tie up the dread. 8 gants can keep the dread locked up for a while, while a pred is not bothered.
The dread can move and shoot 2 tl autos, which is nice, but has less front armor. Thus, if what you need is pure shooting, the mobility of the dread is less of a plus.

Well, to be told I do play differently then most, mostly versitile units and outplaying my opponent rather than taking a mathmatically superior force and hoping the dice roll in my favor, so to me, a dread is a superior choice.

DevianID wrote:I have demonstrated that the dread is LESS effective against non av10 transports just a few posts up, and you are far, FAR from guarenteed to immob armor 11 or 12.

Not quite; you are assuming static units. The Dreads ability it to move and fire all four shots. something the Predator can not do. Predators are static shooting units. Dreads can run, assault & manoeuvres for cover or side shots. Fortunately most Marine armies can take both.

Lyracian, to be fair the predator can move a guarenteed 12 inches, something the dreads can not do. Also, Tank Shocking an enemy off an objective from 12 inches away has won me many a game, again something the dread can not do.

The Dread and Pred are also not necessarily substitutes as they do not compete for slots.

It's not a case of Obliterators versus Havok squads, it's more akin to a Boyz Trukk versus 3 Meganobz.

sourclams wrote:The Dread and Pred are also not necessarily substitutes as they do not compete for slots.

It's not a case of Obliterators versus Havok squads, it's more akin to a Boyz Trukk versus 3 Meganobz.

I do understand that, but if elite and heavy slots were not in demand, what are the advantages of the dread over the pread?

Did you not read the rest of the thread? People have been quite good at summarizing the differences.

The other edge to the Dread (in non-BA lists) is in Dawn of War, and when Reserving against alpha-strike armies. The Dread can fire to full effect the turn it enters the table, and the Pred can't.

One element which the math above didn't (can't) take into account is that it's easier for opponents to make effective use of cover against the pred, because it can't move & fire more than one gun, because its sponson layout makes it extremely difficult to get all three guns bearing on target while getting any cover itself,, and because the sponson guns are just physically lower to the ground.

Yes, that is a good point. Plus the dread can go upstairs and fire from within a building for better vantage points and to be safe from assault by beast units.

As said though, they compliment one another more than conflict. They are both very good buys.

3 Dreads
3 Preds
3 Typhoons
1 assault unit (SS/TH termies with character do nicely)
Scoring units to taste.

You have yourself a party.