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So i have recently run into a little problem facing deamon armys with my orks. It has come to my attention very quickly and painfully that there is not much if anything in the ork army that can handel Fiends of Slaanesh, being very high I models with rending and multiple wound eternal worriors and inv saves of 5 this is a force that should scare any ork player.

they do only have the 5 up save so numbers can beat them out with shooting but being beasts they have a threat range of 24 inches thats outside a full unit of shoota boys and even pumping 1 or even 2 units of lootas into these things will not take out enough to stop them for long.

So my question to ork players and maybe even deamon players, what is there in the ork dex that can take on this threat? any feedback would be greatly taken.

on another note, this being a 6 model 190 point unit its cost is very nice for what you get out of it.

They only have 2 wounds each. This means a max squad of them is only ever going to number 12 wounds. With a 5+ save, it's kinda like putting the hurt on a slightly larger Guardsmen squad with SM toughness, or 12 naked Space Marines. Plain Ork Boyz with no upgrades should take it down just fine. at 6 points a pieces you get 3 S3 attacks if charged. running the same amount, you can get something along the lines of 90 attacks (with 10 points left over for a Nob). While not suffice to utterly crush the Fiends in one round of combat, you can certainly take a good chunk out of them.

sure there are only 12 wounds in this unit but being assalted by them (and you will be at a 2 foot threat range) thats 36 atks so 18 hits with 3s to wound and rending you probly just lost 12 boyz, 18 boys left, 54 atks, roughly 26 hits and 5s to wound so maybe if your lucky you get 6 wounds on them they save 2 thats only 2 of 6 models dead. make 8 more fearless saves... 13 boys left? and your 220 point unit killed off 60 points of deamons? amd these boys will die the next round. and whats assuming they didnt bring a Grinder and drop a str 8 ap3 large blast on your boyz before he assalted...

Nob Bikers?
Max squad of lootas should bering down a decent amount even if only shooting once.

Avg 30 shots
10 hits
8.33333 wounds
5.55555 unsaved
3 dead. (rounded)

Nob bikers still struggle with them. them having such a high I with so many atks that rend, you take your lets say 6 man nob bikers with warboss and painboy into them your deathstar unit of like 600 point will be hurting badly...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1 fiend str 6, 6 atks on charge 3 hits lets say 2 wounds on rending.

5 fiends str 5, 30 atks, 10 hits, 5 wounds lets call 2 rounding,

lets say you roll well and only lose 1 or 2 nobs, right there their unit almost paid for itself, but you only have 4 more atking back one being the WB,

warboss 5 atks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s, doesnt matter if its a PK or BC they will have 5+ save and cant be instakilled, so 3 hits 3 wounds from him,

3 more bikers, 9 atks, 3 hits 3 wounds you will roughly only put 6 wounds back on that unit of fiends, thats only 2 dead.

so the 600 point or so unit of nob bikers lost 2 and killed 2 models of a 190 point unit. and it only gets worse for the bikers as the assalts continue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
other then the grinder with its mawcannon, im thinking all firepower needs to be focused into this unit asap, after that there isnt too much to be worried about for orks in the deamon army.

Well what you do is take a tank to the knife fight. Think like an ork and hit them with deff rolls on battle wagons. Mech up my boy.

Did that didnt turn out too well, deffrollad them, 3 str 10 hits 3 wounds he failed 1 save, still 6 fiends left with 36 rending atks on rear armor 10 of a BW yes its 6s to hit but thats still 6 hits at str 5 and 6 with rending was a quickly poped waggon

Shoot the piss out of them. Lootas, Shoota Boyz, etc.

18 boyz would make 9 wounds on fiends, causing an average of 6 unsaved wounds, meaning 3 dead fiends. That halves their combat potential. You also suffer only 6 Fearless saves, meaning much less Orks die. and the entire squad only costs 180 points, 10 less than the 190 point fiends. A Nob would seriously even the odds by adding an extra wound to the squad, an extra attack, and higher strength. The clincher? He costs exactly 10 points.

So 30 Ork boyz with a Nob VS 6 Fiends, Assuming the Fiends did NOT get shot up and gets the charge:

6 Fiends = 36 attacks on the charge
18 will hit
3 are rending, 9 will wound normally (they wound on a 3+ since Orks have T4)
10 Orks will die

19 Orks and 1 Nob = 57 Boyz attacks and 4 Nob attacks
28.5 Boyz and 2 Nobz attacks will hit
9.5 Boyz will wound, as will one Nob
7 unsaved Wounds means 3 dead fiends and 1 wounded

3 Ork Saves will be made, 2 will die, with one semi-likely to live.

3 fiends = 15 attacks
7.5 will hit
3 normal wounds, 2 rending
4 dead Orks

12 Orks and 1 Nob = 36 Boyz attacks and 4 Nob attacks
18 Boyz and 2 Nob will wound
6 Boyz will wound along with that one Nob attack
roughly 4 wounds on the fiends, meaning that one lives with only 1 wound left now. Combat will likely be tied since the differences are close (the Orks would likely win this combat on average, meaning the Fiend needs to make a Fearless save of it's own, likely killing it).

Fiend will likely disengage at this point and either flee or charge again to get +1 attack

Fiend = 6 attacks
3 hit
1 normal wound, 1 rending
about 1.66 dead orks (rounding up to 2 for the sake of calculations)

10 Orks and Nob = 30 Boyz attacks and 4 Nob attacks
15 Boyz and 2 Nob hits
5 Boyz wound with 1 Nob wound
4 wounds on the fiend, who only has 1 left anyways.

10 boyz and 1 Nob walks out of this without a scratch. Now the calcuations are rushed and I had to go back on it a few times, so please do correct anything you see wrong, but this is roughly an even matchup.

the odds seam a little better in the boyz perspective here but still your assuming your going in will a full unit of boyz, even then i would think 2 full units of boyz having that second unit close and ready to charge after the first unit charges would be a very good strat if pulled off correctly in this instance. that is still pulling 2 of your scoring units into a situation where you are pulling 440 points of boyz to get rid of a 190 point threat none scoring unit...

now thnking on that deff rolla idea, hit them with 2 BWs thats roughly 7 its 6 wounds 1 saved for 5 wounds on them, shoot them with 4 trucks of boyz they would only pull off another 4 unsaved wounds form 48 boyz and trukks worth of shooting, thats 4 dead with one wounded and the potential loss of models is very small.

but again thats diverting around 1k worth of your points against a single unit of the deamon list and not compleatly getting rid of that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but that does fit into my tournament list a little bit better then two full units of boyz at 440 points.

I think your biker math was off.
6 Fiends assuming you have killed none with lootas / whatever else have you.
6*6 = 36
36/2 = 18
18 /2 = 9
9 wounds = 1.5 rends & 7.5 wounds
1.5 * (2/3) = 1 wound for your cybork bodies I know you took
now 7.5 * (1/4) 4+ armor & FNP = 1.875 wounds

Allocated properly that's not even 1 dead nob.

I'm gonna use my standard 6 nobs + boss (3 BC, 2 PK, Doc, WB)
Now we swing back:
Warboss 5 attacks:
3.333 Hit
2.777 wounds = 1.875 unsaved
Rounded that's one dead fiend since they can't allocate.


3 BC nobz
3 attacks each = 9
9 * (2/3) = 6 because you were smart & brought a waaagh banner.
6* (5/6) = 5 wounds
5* (2/3) = 3.33333 wounds
Hooray one more dead & an extra wound left over

2 PK nobs
6 attacks
4 hits
3.33333 wounds
2.22222 unsaved
A Third dead fiend

Doc
3 attacks
2 Hits
1.5 wounds
1 wound

Without much rounding that's: 1.875+2.222+3.333+1 = 8.43 dead fiends. They did 3 wounds rounded to your 8 again rounded. They lost by 5, 5 no retreat saves means 3.333333 more unsaved wounds.

8.43 + 3.333 = 11.76 wounds. That sounds like a dead squad for a total loss of 2.875 nob wounds, not even one dead nob if properly allocated / the dice gods don't hate you. Sounds like victory to me. I apologize for the legth but it's for ease of reading. Now that's also with A squiq on warboss, even without it that's still highly in your favor.

looks pretty good to me.... i had a unit of bikers in with my army, but did not take them into the fiends underestimating them the first time i played them and getting cought up in other units with my bikers the other times.

Don't ever underestimate the nob bikers. The only thing you have to fear in daemons are soulgrinders that still have DCCW, Skarbrand / Blood thirster with Might or skull taker, *Shudder* rends on a 4+ & causes ID regardless of toughness. These things are best shot with lootas anything else you should take down.

Stear clear of DCCW, Str8 or higher or anything else that ID's and you'll chew things up.

underestimated the fiends not the bikers... have pulled them out of my competitive list but maybe have to rethink them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
will playtest the new one and old one a few tmes and see what i like more.

To make it worse, if the fiends take one upgraded with unholy might, they can throw the wound allocation around just a tiny bit-I play daemons, so I understand how important wound allocation can be when you have "only" a 5++ (meaning no awesome armor save)

Not enough to be a threat imo. You have ONE thing you can allocate differently to. On a 2 wound model it's just not enough to be particularly effective. You still take about 8.43 wounds compared to the orks 4 (I'll give you an extra one for the +1 str on one model which is generous to say the least)

You lose combat by 4 & take another 2 wounds again being generous. so 10.43 wounds is 5 dead fiends, you got lucky & the allocation worked so 4 dead & the remeaining 2 each have a wound. They just don't do enough.

thinking about it a unit of mega noobs could probly handel this unit even better then the nob bikers. cheaper then the bikers and having the 2+ save, granted there is no cybork bodies or fnp but there is still some room for wound allocation in there. true they will be wounded on 3s instead of 4s but with the higher save the only wounds that will mean anything are the rends,

Normally Ork Numbers would be thinned due to shooting, however Daemons are notoriously lacking in that department (and Tzeentch Daemons are really suseptable to close combat attacks). In addition they need to deep strike and that usually takes care of them, since they are not immune to most mishaps like the newer DS methods and have no shooting to compensate for not being allowed to charge.

Also, my example assumed that most variables were in the Daemon's favour, had equal points value (And the Orks basically sat there and did nothing but get charged). Suffice to say if there were actually two units of Boyz the Fiends had to deal with, the latter wouldnt have survived past turn 2.

now that i think about it this unit is not as unstopable as i was originally thinking, just needed soemone to hammer out some mathhammer with me. it is really just the army build i have been playing that will struggle with deamon armies, though with a tweek or 2 it wont. add that along with my preperation of going into these games/tournaments (that being working all night beforhand)

You're facing an army that largely specializes in close combat (half the book literally does not have a ranged option, and only a quarter of it has actual, viable ranged weapons), so it's going up against the Ork's main attribute. Having army-wide Eternal means that you just need to field higher numbers to even things out. However, there's a reason why Orks are consistently placed as one of the best codexes, with Daemons just narrowly avoiding being one of the worst. Slaanesh, in particular, are alpha strike glass cannons. As long as you can weather the brunt, they're gonna crumble into dust.

No mega nobz can't allocate as well they have a max of 3 combinations IIRC.

Running the numbers again:

36 Attacks
18 hits
12 wounds
2 rends 10 normal
Distribute those around 3 types.
1 rend 1 normal 1 normal 1 normal
1 rend 1 normal 1 normal 1 normal
1 normal 1 normal 1 normal 1 normal

So 1 wound + (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6) twice
that's 3/6 each so let's say you fail one for statistics. One dead nob
and (4/6)
They have done 3.66666 wounds AND one of your nobs is dead

Swing back
Warboss still does 1.875
5 remaining nobs = 15 attacks
No waagh banner means you hit on 4's
7.5 hits
6.25 wounds
6 unsaved (with warboss) so 3 dead fiends

6 wounds Vs a rounded 4 wounds means they take 2 no retreat saves & lose 1 wound.

The meganobz just don't cut it nearly as well.

im not sure i would put deamons down near one of the worst armies. they have been becoming more and more competitive in the last year or so. that being proven on large scale in the last ard boyz, and even more so evident in a smaller scale with deamons winning quite a few local tournaments in my area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
6 meganobs run 300 points (with 2 rockets and 2 scortchas) compaired to your unit of bikes thats roughly 600 points, so half the points should accomplish about the same thing as the nob bikers, i also think your math is a little off with mega nobs all wounding on 2+, and your assuming that the nob that fails the save is one that takes one of the rending wounds....

I play orks and demons, and fiends got nothing on orks, they are expensive and killing 6 points a shot isn't going to pay for them assuming they don't get all shot up by loota's or intercepted by storm boyz. I am not sure why you are having issues. Most demon's players don't play fiends anyhow, its not real likely you will ever run into them.

Hydeckadecka wrote:
6 meganobs run 300 points (with 2 rockets and 2 scortchas) compaired to your unit of bikes thats roughly 600 points, so half the points should accomplish about the same thing as the nob bikers, i also think your math is a little off with mega nobs all wounding on 2+, and your assuming that the nob that fails the save is one that takes one of the rending wounds....

No, Meganobz have PKs. They wound on 2+. Also with 1 rend you put one on one type & one on another. These each take an additional 3 regular wounds that totals to 6. Odds say they fail one. There are 4 normal ones left over. Yes there is the chance that they won't but staistically with each taking 3, one will fail. Also the meganobz are slow & purposeful. Won't matter much V daemons but he can easily avoid you unless you give them a transport which will be a battlewagon so add another 90 points minimum and they have less firepower (No TLBig shootas with 18" range)

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Hydeckadecka wrote:
6 meganobs run 300 points (with 2 rockets and 2 scortchas) compaired to your unit of bikes thats roughly 600 points, so half the points should accomplish about the same thing as the nob bikers, i also think your math is a little off with mega nobs all wounding on 2+, and your assuming that the nob that fails the save is one that takes one of the rending wounds....

No, Meganobz have PKs. They wound on 2+. Also with 1 rend you put one on one type & one on another. These each take an additional 3 regular wounds that totals to 6. Odds say they fail one. There are 4 normal ones left over. Yes there is the chance that they won't but staistically with each taking 3, one will fail. Also the meganobz are slow & purposeful. Won't matter much V daemons but he can easily avoid you unless you give them a transport which will be a battlewagon so add another 90 points minimum and they have less firepower (No TLBig shootas with 18" range)

You can trukk meganobz, no need for the wagon. there are very few things 6 mega's in a trukk can't do, other than pass a leadership test LOL!

Um its prolly been said already but lootas seem like they would do the job nicely.

Or this may be the one time a boomgun on a looted wagon may be of use.

tgf wrote:
You can trukk meganobz, no need for the wagon. there are very few things 6 mega's in a trukk can't do, other than pass a leadership test LOL!

AV10 Opentopped? Wonder how easy that is to blow up. . . even with KFF.