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What's the consensus on whether or not leadership-altering abilities affect mob rule. Example: suppose my squad of 17 boyz gets hit by an enemy PBS for -9 Ld and then assaulted by a gang of banshees (rough day), can they use their unit size against the War Shout ability, for example? If so, would it be effected by the Ld reduction from the PBS? Thanks in advance for helping me clear this up.

I think that the prevailing wisdom is that they would be Leadership 1, and Fearless.

Personally I believe that mob rule is a magic screw you to all LD modifiers(positive or negative) because Ld is not exchanged until you choose to have it exchanged(in other words base Ld is altered by effect; then a ld test is called for and the Ork player looks at his 10 now Ld 2 orks and says: "OK Mob rule, testing at Ld 10").

However, you asked for the Consensus; and that is that the LD modifiers effect all Ld values after the modifier goes into effect(Negating other Ld exchanging abilities as well).

In your example, unless you are going with 2 "player turns", one for each side, then the Weaken resolve ability would have no effect on the warshout ability. In other words the PBS hits the mob with WR; the mob is now Ld2(minimum possible via WR) and fearless(so now only things that directly deal with Ld values care about the Ld2, they cannot be pinned, nor flee). The IG player then ends his turn and the Eldar player starts his, gets through everything and goes for the assault on the Mob, the Eldar Player smirks and tells you that you need to pass a morale test or be WS1. You can then Smirk back for 2 reasons; the first is that you are back to Ld 10, the second is that you are fearless and auto-pass Morale tests anyways.

We can change the Example to an IG/DE tag team; the IG turn does the same thing, the DE turn has a Haemonculus lob an Orb of despair and Smirking that he can now Instant Death a very large chunk of your mob, and all on 2+s; you then get to Smirk back and tell him he need 4+ to wound your models.

In both cases as soon as the IG player ends his turn the WR effect goes away. Turn as defined in the BRB always means Player turn; unless it is specified as Game turn.

Kommissar Kel wrote:in other words base Ld is altered by effect

I missed that in text, on to read.

War shout doesn't effect a fearless unit though, does it?

The rule indicates, as far as i read, that you can always choose to substitite your normal Ld with the "number of orks in their mobs"

As i read it, it means that any ability that targets your Ld hits your "normal" Ld value. Henceforth, you can THEN choose to have the "numbers Ld" override this (i'm getting this from the RAW: "... May ALWAYS choose...").


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:War shout doesn't effect a fearless unit though, does it?

It doesn't say anything about not affecting fearless units. It states, that in the first turn of an assault, "... ANY enemy unit she or her Squad is fighting must pass a morale test or count as having WS 1 for the rest of the Assault phase."


Edit: I stand corrected. Morale tests doesn't apply to Fearless units.

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:in other words base Ld is altered by effect

I missed that in text, on to read.

Eh, don't bother. I wont be debating my beliefs; I added them to this discussion just to state other opinions are out there but then went on to explain what the consensus(which is what was asked for) was.

The WR ability states that "for the remainder of the turn the enemy unit's Ld is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power" The units Ld is that of the highest Ld value in the unit(in this case 7) The Rules under Characteristics tells us that the individual number under the given Characteristic in the profile is that models Characteristic value; modifiers to that value is also defined here. Having a value, and then a modifier to that value, should not have any effect on other abilities to replace that value.

I agree with an play with the consensus however; because mob rule and similar would be ridiculously OP with the morale check for losing combat(it is currently defined as a Ld modifier; so If i were correct, a mob of 20 Orks could lose a combat by 5 wounds, and lose enough boyz total to bring them down to 10 boyz, then when it comes time to take the morale test revert back to Ld 10.)

Monster Rain wrote:War shout doesn't effect a fearless unit though, does it?

no, it is a morale test.

Yes, they still need to take a morale test, but, because they are fearless, they automatically pass all morale tests, regardless of their Ld number.

Derp. Forgot it was a morale and not a Ld test.

Why would they be Ld 1, though? If there are 17 models in the unit, they would be Ld 8 after the WR, wouldn't they?

I'm pretty sure no attribute can be higher than 10.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, they still need to take a morale test, but, because they are fearless, they automatically pass all morale tests, regardless of their Ld number.

Fearless doesn't prevent you from taking LD Tests, just Morale and Pinning.

MekanobSamael wrote:Derp. Forgot it was a morale and not a Ld test.

Why would they be Ld 1, though? If there are 17 models in the unit, they would be Ld 8 after the WR, wouldn't they?

Well they wouldn't; they'd be Ld2 (that is the lowest WR can get them to)

But as Monster rain said; Characteristics are capped at 10 so substituting Ld for # of models would still be ten no matter how many more boys you had than ten; then WR reduces the Ld10 by the number of Psykers down to a minimum of 2. But only until the end of the IG Players turn(and since to only Ld based rules IG has access to is Morale and Pinning tests it would get ignored anyways.)

Monster Rain wrote:I'm pretty sure no attribute can be higher than 10.

You are correct Monster Rain, no attribute can be above 10. on page 6 of the BRB:

"However no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0."

This is one of the few times that BRB overrides codex

Except for Attacks, and ONLY for bonus attacks - the actual profile cannot be above 10, but e.g. Khorne lord with Daemon weapon can have 17 attcks, etc.