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allow me to predecess by saying, when I play, I play to win. I don't play for the fun of watching the game go along. I see that as an extra. [a good one at that]

So, I was playing a game against a boy [I'd say about thirteen fourteen.] during the whole game, he'd been moving models poorly. [he once literally moved a nurgle marine 11"...] and I gently reminded him that they'd gone too far. the whole time he was sarcastic. During about third turn, he forgot to move those nurgle marines, so I let him move them, despite the fact that he'd already shot a few squads [not the one in question] then, next turn, I forgot to bring in reserves. he told me that no, I couldn't bring them in.

Is there any point in being flexible with the rules with people outside your friendsgroup?

Yeah, there is. It means you're not a douchelord.

Your opponent was in the wrong, not you.

The example isn't "being accomodating". It's letting a child break the rules with impunity, and to an absurdly extreme degree. I can't imagine why you would let him do so.

There's a fine line between being gracious and letting people get away with nonsense, for sure.. OP was correct to call him on his movement and was gracious in letting him move his plague marines after having forgotten. I would generally do the same thing in a non-tournament game. Hell, I've let people do it in tournament games.

If a player moves an infantry model anywhere near 11", and HE continually is sarcastic and has a bad attitude, I'm not sure why the game even continues from that point.

Haha, I sympathize with you. I have been in the same position with nearly the same outcome. A gaming store I frequent has some kids come in to play now and again. If no one is available I will sometimes have a game or 2 with them just to help out the shop to keep people coming to play. The situation you described happens often with the younger players. I haven't done this in about 3 or 4 months due to my patience wearing thin with a few of these kids. They can play someone else who is less forgiving than me or not at all now. When new players are learning they need to learn common courtesy as well.

You did right, he needs to learn. Next time just table him, and police his every move. (assuming you have the patience to play him again). May get you dirty looks, up to you I guess.

Oh. Right.

What was the outcome from that, OP? Did he correct his movement?

I've packed up my models mid-game on occasion, and I agree that I would probably do so in this case.

Sorry, I've given details, but not in chronological order.

in the fifth turn he moved almost all his models more then 6". [the worst was 11".]

Yeah, you should definitely throw a flag on that.

I'll let little things slide here and there if it doesn't seem like its intentional cheating or doesn't really affect the game, but that's pretty egregious.

I haven't run into that because the LGS doesn't really have any players that young.

I feel like being flexible is alright but there is definitely a line. Pampering someone else just encourages more obnoxious behavior.

Being accomodating is fine. It doesn't have to mean that
kid gets to do w/e he wants.

Your choices are to engage the behavior or to ignore it. If
you're a part of the local community, then you have to police
it. Engaging it means telling him straight out that he's a
cheater or an ignoramus and teaching him (assuming he
wants to be taught). Ignoring it means telling him you won't
play him again and why. Policing it means watching his
games and calling him on his bs.

Solon- did you win? if you did, despite all the problems, then relax.

If you play this guy again, politely point out to them what they are doing wrong.

If the guy is still a prick, and you have the 'mad skills', table them, despite their cheating. Show them a rule adhering massacre.

Oh and aren't you still in school yourself? You were young once you know!!

malfred wrote:Being accomodating is fine. It doesn't have to mean that
kid gets to do w/e he wants.

Your choices are to engage the behavior or to ignore it. If
you're a part of the local community, then you have to police
it. Engaging it means telling him straight out that he's a
cheater or an ignoramus and teaching him (assuming he
wants to be taught). Ignoring it means telling him you won't
play him again and why. Policing it means watching his
games and calling him on his bs.

This.

One because the younger guys are the next batch to come up, and Two, because if you let this sort of behavior ride, you are going to thin your own heard, so to speak. If you don't deal with Gak, your local game group spawns into the whole degraded quality of game group thing, and also for the other players, who self destruct your local crew when they end up quitting, because of the one or two or three D bags that people let ride, because of either not wanting to police thier own house, or "Being accomodating" or whatever reason. Your quality of game group depends on your collective ethic. if you want to put up with crap behavior, you get crap in return. Collectively your group suffers.

Mr. Burning wrote:Solon- did you win? if you did, despite all the problems, then relax.

If you play this guy again, politely point out to them what they are doing wrong.

If the guy is still a prick, and you have the 'mad skills', table them, despite their cheating. Show them a rule adhering massacre.

Oh and aren't you still in school yourself? You were young once you know!!

I'm all of a year older then him.

Last year I was shaky on the rules. When I got things wrong, I appologised. I respected those who accomodated me. I feel it should be part of the game.

It seems that politness gets you nowhere in this game.

That's just because you don't play with us.

I'm just saying.

Are you insinuating that I'm a bad player or that i just don't get to play with many respectable players

Captain Solon wrote:It seems that politness gets you nowhere in this game.

Your situation doesn't have much to do with politeness, IMHO. Allowing an opponent to cheat can be done politely or impolitely. Refusing to allow an opponent to cheat can also be done politely or impolitely. There are plenty of ways you could have stopped him from making an 11" move while maintaining politeness.

You can't force everyone around you to behave to your standards. Partly because some people out there are s, but mostly because most people don't know what your standards are. So you can only control how you respond to them. You can ignore violations of your standards, you can educate people as to what you expect of them, you can scold them and shame them and create a social cost for violating your standards, and you can remove yourself from having to deal with them. None of these have anything to do with politeness or manners, they're just your choices. Politeness is just the style you use to execute your choice.

In my opinion, accommodating a player who doesn't know the rules well can involve many things, but it does not involve allowing them to flagrantly violate a core aspect of the rules.

Looks like he was insinuating neither, relax. There are people like the person you versed everywhere (ie it's not the game), some people are just jerks with little to no reason behind it.

Politeness will always be a better alternative than being a complete jerk. What it gets you in this game? Great games with new friends.

There is an age, or more accurately a mind set most often assocaited with a certain age, where a person has freed himself from purely punitive morality (if i do something bad, I'll get in trouble) but has yet to fully develop higher forms of morality (I need to behave to become an accepted member of society) where self interest is the primary goal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

don't worry too much about it, but don't allow the little punks to get away with cheating.

I think you've all gotten me wrong...

I wasn't saying I LET him cheat. I let him move a model out of sequence, He did loose. I never let anyone move too far, especially not 11". that is rediculous.

Don't you **have** to roll for reserves?

I'm glad you won but to be fair I wouldn't play him again. Though I probably wouldnt play you either to begin with since you 'play to win'. I play a game to have fun winning is a byproduct of the end of the game.

However if I encountered such a guy like the kid, I would point out said mistakes. I would then play to win, crush him utterly, drive his miniatures before me and hear the lamentation of his mother. If he continued being a prinkler* I'd start moving 12" inches, doing things out of turn as it's clear its not warhammer 40k 5th edition he's playing, merely some sort of magical sarcasm game.

I'm not condoning it, I would attempt to allow him to rectify his behaviour, demonstrate why, then try to force him, then descend to his level and crush him utterly.


*fake rude word, fill it in as you'd like...

This is why avoid pick up games. Pick up games are a hot bed for issues in rules and un-sportsman like behavior.

Well I am a grown man so I dont play kids.... But that being said my regular opponent is the worst for not allowing me to do something Ive forgotten But expects it in return. Hes also really fond of "fudge" moves and seems to repostion his units so many times its hard to work out where they started. Last game after he denied me something really unimportent I cracked the gaks and started pulling him up on his fudge moves "dude you moved the unit it stays moved deal with it"

I consider it a point of pride that I don't let the stunts other people pull make me start to do the same myself. I've generally been very lucky with my opponents anyway though. Rinkydink and ArbitorIan from these boards are the only people I've played more than once, and they are both stand-up guys. (Either that or they are really good at cheating )

Captain Solon wrote:allow me to predecess by saying, when I play, I play to win. I don't play for the fun of watching the game go along. I see that as an extra. [a good one at that]

So, I was playing a game against a boy [I'd say about thirteen fourteen.] during the whole game, he'd been moving models poorly. [he once literally moved a nurgle marine 11"...] and I gently reminded him that they'd gone too far. the whole time he was sarcastic. During about third turn, he forgot to move those nurgle marines, so I let him move them, despite the fact that he'd already shot a few squads [not the one in question] then, next turn, I forgot to bring in reserves. he told me that no, I couldn't bring them in.

Is there any point in being flexible with the rules with people outside your friendsgroup?

If I actually think the person forgot I will always let them move a unit even if they already fired. If they keep doing it every turn I will usually just start asking them if they finished moving. It is just a game and if they want to be a complete douche you don't need to be one back. So I think you did the right thing.

I'm slightly forgiving, a friendly game is a friendly game, so an extra inch here or there is no big deal, but the same time I'm a big proponent of "learn through pain" If you do something stupid or forget something, I'll let you keep right on rolling until your mistake come to bite you in the ass, better they learn the hard way than have people give them handouts the whole time and feel wronged when someday someone finally tells them, "no you forgot to move them, so they stay there. better luck next time."

But the game should be about how good your strategy is as well as how good you're playing is.

To be on an even playing field and have a fair game both players need to know the rules and not make mistakes and also have the same pts of armies (assuming points are fair.. they're not but it doesn't matter)

It sounds like this person was being a bit selfish, but what has worked for me in the past was to make an explicit quid pro quo agreement. If someone forgot to do something (like shoot with a unit), I would offer to let them do so, on the condition that they would do the same for me if I did so in the game.

This may have helped, or it may not have. I've had some opponents not agree to that "gentleman's agreement", probably hoping that my mistake would be more costly than theirs. However, by expressly spelling it out, it does help me to avoid the irritation of being "generous" and not receiving generosity in return.

I've even offered to allow those types of "do-over" moments in exchange for a free reroll for me. So long as you and your opponent both agree, the game should be agreeable. However, it's much easier to be explicit up front than disappointed later.