Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I recently decided to start collecting Chaos Space Marines, but I realized I needed an army build first, so I wouldn't be wasting my money.

So I thought of a pretty cool basic army type to start off with(But I don't even have the codex yet so bear with the simplicity): Have a lot of Khorne Berzerkers and Raptors, to get into CC as fast as possible and then take quite a few heavy weapon squads to take them from a distance, maybe a tank or two.

So my questions would be: What heavy weapons would be suitable and could someone give me an idea of how many Berzerkers and heavy weapons and tanks?

My plan is to start off is about 500 points and then go to 1000

1750 point example....that 1 of my close friends plays alot

HQ- Chaos Lord, Jump Pack, Blood Feeder, Mark of Khorne
160 points

Elites- 3 Terminators with 3 combi-melta and a chainfist
120 Points

Elites- 3 Terminators with 3 combi-melta and a chainfist
120 Points

Troops- 7 Zerkers and Skull Champion with P fist and P Icon
Rhino transport with combi-melta
258 points

Troops- 7 Zerkers and Skull Champion with P fist and Rhino transport with combi-melta
253 points

Troops- 7 Zerkers and Skull Champion with P fist and P Icon
Rhino transport with combi-melta
258 points

Fast Attack- 9 Raptors and AC 2 meltaguns and P Fist with Icon of Khorne
270 Points

Heavy Support- 5 Havocs with 4 Missile Launchers
155 Points

Heavy Support- 5 Havocs with 4 Missile Launchers
155 Points

1749 points.....You could change how you like but the Havocs are great at popping transports, the termicide squads DS and blow up LR variants and other High AV targets. The Zerkers and Raptors mop up what is exposed from it's ride!

Good Luck

So, you want a CC list? More or less? Okay, well first of all, raptors are garbage. They provide no advantage over regular CSMs in a rhino. BUT, they're only 20 points, so if you really want to, you can make a unit of ten of them for about the same cost as a regular unit of 10 CSM. They earn their points back in large groups, I guess.


Berserkers are great. You can throw them in a rhino, or just let them run around every turn. It's up to you.

For heavy weapons, go for missile launchers. They're really good against basically everything. Heavy bolters are cool too. But not against MEQ armies.

I'd include about 6 Obliterators in 1500 pt games or higher.
They are the best HS unit in the CSM codex.

General wisdom people told me when I was sniffing around chaos:

-Daemon princes are generally better than chaos lords
-cult marines are more durable and flexible than regular marines
-heavy support should be predators if fully mechanized, obliterators or havocs with autocannons or missile launchers if on foot
-raptors are less resilient than troop slot marines for the cost, so either take a big unit or none at all


I don't know how good this advice is, but I do know that several people repeated these points to me. I personally feel like multiple small units of raptors could be a great harassment tactic, but I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll shut up.

Darth Badguy wrote:General wisdom people told me when I was sniffing around chaos:

-Daemon princes are generally better than chaos lords

Lords maybe, but you also have sorcerors and a host of special characters to choose from, some of which are really good.

Darth Badguy wrote:-cult marines are more durable and flexible than regular marines

Durable, not really. Plagues yes because of FNP and T5. But Zerkers and noise marines are exactly the same as CSM, and 1ksons are only better against AP3 while out of cover, which doesn't happen much.
Flexible, again not really. Zerkers and noise marines lose their melta and heavy weapon options, 1ksons have virtually no options, plagues lose heavy weapons and the various mark options. CSM are by far the most flexible. Now if you want to specialize then cult troops can be better at certain things, but being flexible is generally not it.

Darth Badguy wrote:-heavy support should be predators if fully mechanized, obliterators or havocs with autocannons or missile launchers if on foot

Havocs w/ auto cannons are very expensive. And I personally try and stay away from things that other armies can do but do cheaper or with some additional awesome rules. That rules out most predator variants that normal SMs can do cheaper, havocs (especially missle havocs) that wolves do cheaper and with obnoxious special rules. Kind of leaves oblits, vindis and defilers. My personal favorite is oblits, very flexible, but you pay a premium for a pretty fragile unit so use them wisely.

Darth Badguy wrote:-raptors are less resilient than troop slot marines for the cost, so either take a big unit or none at all

I don't understand this logic. If something is inefficient or not very resilient for the pts shouldn't you take less of it? Saying "5 raptors jump once and die, but 10 jump once and then 5 make it into combat, so 5 is a total waist but 10 gets you a return" is a legit comment. But if the comment is CSM are cheaper when kitted out for them same task then take CSMs.

Darth Badguy wrote:I don't know how good this advice is, but I do know that several people repeated these points to me. I personally feel like multiple small units of raptors could be a great harassment tactic, but I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll shut up.

Generally raptors aren't very popular anymore. I don't know if this is because they are inefficient, the models are really expensive, or some combination of both. I think they get sidelined a lot for CSMs in rhinos which generally offers more protection and more bolter fire for similar cost and movement.

Raptors are not that great. They work well in 5 man squads with 2 melta guns, but that is the only configuration that is reliable, IMO.

Lord with bloodfeeder is fun, but not consistent. 1/3 of the time he hits himself, so if you can live with that, then go for it as it can hit big, but for consistency, a lord with MoK and LCs is far better.

Although, the lord really isn't that great at all, to be honest. Lash Princes or Lash Sorcerers are best and will help to pull units towards you to get into combat faster. Also, Nurgle Princes with Warp Time are great. All DPs should have wings, too, btw.

Zerkers are good, but you will have a rough go of it if you have nothing but Zerkers. 1 squad would be fine.

Regular CSMs are great. People talk trash on them, but they are a strong troops choice. With MoCG they are very hard to spook, and they are assault marines and tactical marines with 2 special weapons. Mount them in a Rhino and they are mobile as well. They are over costed compared to 5th ed books (like almost all of the chaos units) but they are still a good choice.

Defilers make great HS choices in a close combat themed list. They can shoot, and assault, plus they have fleet. Very flexible unit.

Oblits rock, they are just great.

Las/a.cannon preds are a great, affordable choice.

You can also rock the monster mash list, which is fun and assault oriented.

3 dreads
3 defilers
2 DPs
1 GD
3 units of Zerkers in rhinos.

That list is actually fairly competitive, although not optimal, and it looks cool. It is brutal in assault too, as you could imagine.

Lastly, consider a unit of 5 chosen in a rhino with 4 meltas. This unit can outflank and with the Rhino they have a 27" reach from either board edge, so you have a massive threat range. Or they can start on the board and have the same reach. If you go first they can nuke a tank turn one.

Anyway, hope that helps. Just remember, you pay more for you stuff than you should, so you may be frustrated when you come up against newer armies that have more plentiful assault units that are cheaper. Also, anything with higher In value will stomp the Zerkers, like Harlies, Stealers, etc. You need to have some shooting or speedy elements (like lash princes) to keep the playing field level.

Good Luck!

Reecius wrote:They are over costed compared to 5th ed books (like almost all of the chaos units) but they are still a good choice.

How so? I think they are still a pretty good deal points wise. They are 1 pt cheaper than normal marines, have BP/CCW and Bolter, have better special weapon options than marines, and their champs can also take combi weapons. I'm not 100% sure without my book in front of me but I also think they have higher leadership and frag/krak grenades. Plus on a unit of 10 or more CSMs the Icons/Marks get pretty cheap per guy.

So for basic marines you pay 1pt per model for less special weapons, a free missle launcher (does anyone really take that?) combat squads and ATSKNF. I suppose you might say that's a deal, I kind of fall in the middle/lean towards that's not that good a deal.

Agree with you 100% that they are a very solid capable choices, I also think they are very reasonably priced.

3 dreads
3 defilers
2 DPs
1 GD
3 units of Zerkers in rhinos.

This list also works with some Daemons.
Three squads of Zerkers is a bit much. There are better troop choices to hold an objective.

Something effective to do with raptors is to give them melta guns, then keep them hiding behind your rhinos as you advance
this way they get cover, and you can pop out and kill vehicles once you get there
also, I'd recommend 4 obliterators at the 1500 level, I've been using them and they work very well

Some of you seem to be ignoring my mention of 500-1000 point CC army with heavy ranged support.

But I do appreciate the advice given here none the less.

@ArtfcllyFlvrd
Their Sarge is 5 points more than Vanilla marines and 17 more than a SW, although the SW sarge require an elite spot and costs a free/cheap special.

The leadership bonus (IoCG) is 10 points and they pay for all of their special weapons, no freebees like with SW, BA or Vanilla.

They can be run down in combat. So, if you take an expensive mark to make them better but biff a combat roll or leadership check, they can run away (and not rally under 50%) or get run down.

Those seem like small differences but when you add it up, a fully geared up CSM squad with 2 melta, champ, fist, IoCG, c.melta, and rhino comes out to 265

the same thing with SM (mith a M.Melta instead of second melta) is 240

Wolves: 228 (with one less melta)

So, as you can see, the CSM squad is quite a bit more expensive for the same thing. The closest approximation to them are Grey Hunters who have similar gear but are significantly cheaper.

@Wustenflux
Yeah, that is a good point. For 1 squad of Zerkers, you can have 2 squads of LDs who can either support the Zerkers in combat or sit on objectives.

@The linguist
What are you thinking for your heavy slots to provide fire support? 9 oblits is rock solid and it comes out to 675. You can't go wrong with that set up.

Reecius wrote:@The linguist
What are you thinking for your heavy slots to provide fire support? 9 oblits is rock solid and it comes out to 675. You can't go wrong with that set up.

Yeah, that does sound viable, but then there's my assault choices. Should I go with Rhino'd Berzerkers, as many people have suggested, or some raptors? Or a combination of the two?

IMO, go Zerkers in Rhinos. Raptors just don't compare, least not when I've ran both of them in a game. I've heard many people go 'hey look, they can deep strike!'
Until I remind them they can't use icons for accurate DSing.


Besides, Zerkers gain a metal box, when sporting a havoc or combi melta can do some surprising damage itself and not much compares when your troop choice is striking with 4 Str 5 attacks on the charge. Apiece.

Your troops choice should almost always boil down to some mixture of Zerks, Plague Marines, and CSM with more emphasis on PMs/CSM. Each squad should AAAAALWAAAYS have a rhino. The only time you might get away with no rhino would be if you took a min PM squad to do nothing but stand on an objective. But even in this situation, they'd do it better in a rhino.

Quite frankly, you can't really go wrong if you only take regular CSM with dual melta or dual flamer.

Sourclams said it. I concur with those points totally.

Can't go wrong with this for scoring:

1 x Zerks
2 x PM
1 x CSM

or

1 x Zerks
1 x PM
2-3 x CSM

Or

2-3 x CSM
1-2 x PM

or

3-4 x CSM

That covers all of your bases and gives you lots of flexibility.

The min NM squad with doom siren isn't bad, but they are just a bit too expensive for what they do, for my taste.