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I was wondering how the point total of a land speeder Heavy Flamer/ Multi-Melta combi is talleyed. I see it says "you may replace the heavy bolter with: a heavy flamer for free, a multi melta +10" So do you take the free upgrade and add the 10 points, or do you take the free upgrade, then get the tornado pattern and get the multi melta for 20 points. Obviously I prefer to only pay 10 pts, but is it legal? It says you can replace the heavy bolter, I presume you can replace it with both, since it doesnt say "or," I just need clarification, thanks!

You can only replace a weapon once. After that, you don't have the weapon to replace a second time.

Can you give me a page number and quote from the BRB?

The BRB does not give a full description of English grammar. There is no page reference, but rather simple reading comprehension is required.

Replace with one, replace with multiple. Both are possible options, so please, dont lecture me on my grammar, I am fairly sure this is a valid question.


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An example of this would be "The company replaced their outdated technician, with two new, better technicians, more qualified for the job requirements." Or in these terms, "I am going to replace my old, outdated heavy bolter, with two weapons better suited for the job." In my oppinion, it is valid to replace the heavy bolter with the heavy flamer and multi-melta.

The codex says you may replace your heavy bolter with either a heavy flamer or a multi-melta. You can then add either a heavy flamer or a multimelta or ... . In your case your combination works out to exactly the same cost regardless of which weapon you replace your heavy bolter with. The key point you seem to be missing is that the heavy bolter swap out is an either/or situation and not an option to replace one weapon with one or two different weapons. If you really need a citation in C: SM p128 under section 7.

Also we are not allowed to give specific point costs for upgrades under Dakka posting rules.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:The codex says you may replace your heavy bolter with either a heavy flamer or a multi-melta. You can then add either a heavy flamer or a multimelta or ... . In your case your combination works out to exactly the same cost regardless of which weapon you replace your heavy bolter with. The key point you seem to be missing is that the heavy bolter swap out is an either/or situation and not an option to replace one weapon with one or two different weapons. If you really need a citation in C: SM p128 under section 7.

Also we are not allowed to give specific point costs for upgrades under Dakka posting rules.

Actually, on page 139, it doesnt. Plain and simple, it does not say "and/or" anywhere on the land speeder squadron rules. It does specify that it can be upgraded with one of the following: typhoon or tornado. Yet the heavy flamer/ multi melta option does not saay "one of the following" so, it leads me to believe even more that you may replace it with both, either, or neither. ONce again, to sum up you say "The key point you seem to be missing is that the heavy bolter swap out is an either/or situation" which is clearly not the case, and later in the post it says specifically replace with one of the following, yet the HF/MM is not included in this, so you may replace it with both.

Page 139 gives you a list. It does not say you can pick multiple items from the list, so you cannot.

The thing I think is being missed is that you make one selection to REPLACE. So you chose a flamer and now you go to take the multimelta option, and you run into a block. The block is, you already chose to replace the heavy bolter with a heavy flamer. You now no longer have a heavy bolter to replace, so it's an invalid choice to make.

The problem your running into darkmarine is that you assume that the choice is made simultaneously to replace the weapons, when it is done seperately. Because as soon as you write down (And you have to write it down for an army list) you have chosen which will come first, the melta or the flamer making whatever you go to write down as the second option invalid.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The problem your running into darkmarine is that you assume that the choice is made simultaneously to replace the weapons, when it is done seperately. Because as soon as you write down (And you have to write it down for an army list) you have chosen which will come first, the melta or the flamer making whatever you go to write down as the second option invalid.

Actually, I think this all comes to the interpretation of time. When making a list, you purchase everything at once. "And lets assume for a moment that you are correct, that in writting somthing down, you have made a choice, what if I write with both hands at the same exact time?" That was a joke. Anyway, I believe that everything is purchased at once, as you can revise a list at any point, it is presumed that until you start the tournament or submit your list, it has not been purchased, so, time is presumed to happan all at once when making the list, if you really want to debate about this.

Sorry, you are wrong.

You can't replace a piece of equipment more than a single time. This is because you no longer have it once you have replaced it. You are given 2 options to decide what to replace the heavy bolter with, and you are not given permission to select both.

Stop trying to game the system.

I replace one, with both, seems like a valid choice to me. I dont replace them on a seperate occasion.

There is no option to replace it with both. Are you just trolling?

What do you mean there is no option to replace it with both? And why would I be trolling? I just woke up this morning in a bad mood and have nothing else to do but troll? No, I am not trolling, I am genuinly questioning the interpretation.

The ruleset is permissive meaning you have to find where it does allow you to do something rather than show where it says you can't do something. If you do not see the words "and/or" then you must read the entry as "or". If you read it as "and" then the entry would be mandatory and there would be no need to place the flamer and melta options on seperate lines. That is why page 128 explains what happens when you have the "and/or" clause in a unit's entry. By your reading then a speeder could have 6 weapons mounted on it (Heavy Flamer and Multi-melta replace the heavy bolter and then it could add another heavy flamer and multi-melta and an assault cannon and heavy bolter since the choose one refers to either the Tornado or Typhoon configurations.

darkmarine wrote:What do you mean there is no option to replace it with both? And why would I be trolling? I just woke up this morning in a bad mood and have nothing else to do but troll? No, I am not trolling, I am genuinly questioning the interpretation.

Find permission to replace both. You cant do that? Then you cant do it.

i think this is a little on the ridiculous side. you have NEVER been able to replace one weapon option(s) with two different weapons.
you get rid of your heavy bolter, and you take the flamer... this is not "free" the "cost" is the heavy bolter
you get rid of your heavy bolter, and you take the melta.... this is not "free" either, its "cost" is the heavy bolter AND an additional +10 points.
basically in order to "get" both you would need TWO heavy bolters to "pay the cost" of both.... now, does a land speeder come with two heavy bolters???
if you have already "spent" your heavy bolter to "receive" the flamer, you can no longer pay the "cost" of the melta as you no longer have a heavy bolter to "spend"... and like in life, and 40k, there is no such thing as a free lunch. You can not get something for nothing.

Thanks Hcordes, that makes sense to me.

darkmarine wrote:(Lots of words...)... if you really want to debate about this.

Actually, no. I don't think anyone here wants to debate this. In fact, no one here is debating this... except you.

You asked the question, and have been given the answer, several times, by several different people.

As Dracos answered long ago... the issue is English grammar, but you don't want to acknowledge it.

You are given two choices to replace something
-MM
-HF

Notice the distinct lack of a
-MM&HF
choice?? There is no option, thus you can't do it.

Or, keep ignoring basic language rules, and then you might as well replace it with 10 flamers.... for free...

darkmarine wrote:Thanks Hcordes, that makes sense to me.

you are welcome. glad i could help.