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just drafted up a list for scruitiny so lemme know your opinions

Lords
Grimgor Ironhide 375

Black Orc Warboss
H. Armour + Shield
Sword of Strife
Talisman of Preservation 239

Goblin Warboss
L. Armour + Shield
Martogs Best Basha
Umms Best Boss 'At 116

Core

36 Orc Boys ( B.O Warboss unit)
hw + Shields
Command 246

36 Orc Boys
hw + Shields
Command 246

60 Night Goblins (Goblin Warboss unit)
Nets
2 x Fanatics
hw + Shields
Command 285

Special

36 Black Orcs (Grimgors unit)
Command 506

30 Black Orcs
Morks Spirit Totem
Command 478

4 x Spear Chukkas 140

Orc Chariot 80

Squig Herd
(12 squigs + 8 Herders)
6 frontage 120

Squig Herd
(12 squigs + 8 Herders)
6 frontage 120

---------
2951
---------

Any ideas on what to use the remaining 50 pts on? bulk a couple units maybe or give black orcs shields?

shields or maybe another chukka

Your fighting lizardmen and have no wizards? I would be investing in a level 4 to try and combat his slann's magic casting.

Your fighting lizardmen and have no wizards? I would be investing in a level 4 to try and combat his slann's magic casting.

I know what you mean and Id usually have just that, a lv 4 orc shaman. The only reason i havent included him this time is that he rarely stands up to my friends slann at dispelling anyway and he never makes any impact on the enemy. So i thought id try using his points elsewhere and going for an all out charge at them technique!

Well, as long as you keep your Shaman out of range of the Cupped Hands, you should be able to dispel something...

Also, I'd imagine that a level 4 and a level 2 guaranteeing you the Waaagh! spell would be at least as useful as the Warboss's combat ability. A Power Scroll would help when you need it most; for O&G, sacrificing a lvl4 to get that spell off is essentially sacrificing a lvl4 to win.

This list looks like it'll win hard fast and die hard, depending on your luck. Here's my two cents:

- BSB? Where is he? You could turn the Goblin Warboss into one, and you still have enough points for a Charmed Shield.

- I'm a fan of shields, but I also recognize the use of extra hand weapons. I doubt most O&G players use shields unless they can't afford the extra choppas.

- 4 spear chukkas but no rock lobbas? Are they solely for poking holes in Stegadons, because I think that the latter option would serve you well.

- What's the Orc chariot going to do? It seems lonely.

Was about to post this message with new list when I realised that Id go over my Lords limit. No point in losing the Goblin as it doesnt give me enough points anyway and reaaaaly would rather keep the Orc as a Warboss not Big Boss. Is it stil worth adding a Lv2 Shaman do we think or strongly advise downgrading orc warboss?

I fear you may be correct and my frustration with the shaman has lead me to an extreme. Im going to give him a (un-orcish) second chance
I have always considered the waaagh spell a bit of a rubbish spell but will try it out in next game if possible!
As for the spear chukkas, i love em, pure and simple. In my experience they tend to make their lost cost back easily and as you said warpsolution they poke great holes in stegadons and carnosaurs.
Would equip the second unit or orcs with second choppas but at 2pts per model cnt aford it in this list really so gonna use left over points on a power stone (for waaagh )

You should have:
lvl4 orc shaman with the scroll of IF
2x lvl2 gobbo shamans, one with a dis scroll, the other with the Staff of Sneaky Stealin'.
Get the Spirit Totem (unsure of the pts, if it can go in a unit or has to be on a BSB)
This puts you 4 dice up on dispell, and your opponant one down. Ouch.

Make one of your ork boy units Bigguns, give then two choppas. That's 40 s5 attacks in the first round of combat. Very little stands up to that. You will gain more CR from killing that you will saving from having the shield. No imagine that you have these attacks on the turn you blow the Waaagh! spell on IF.

Good night, Gracie.

Warpsolution is right, the Lobbas are more likely to weaken or ourtight kill steggos than the spearchukkas. Same with thinning out Hordes. And if he has skink skirmishers? Yeah, forget about it. Lobbas are all around the better warmachine.

Well, actually, I was saying that the Chukkas will be better at killing the Stegadon (50%/70pts versus ~30%), but not much else.

The above suggestions are solid, of course; they're what most people do with O&G now, but it's vastly different from your list.

The problem with completely forsaking magic is as follows: ideally, the Big Spell is cast with 6 dice, resulting in IF, nuking one of your big units. Then, if there are any dice left over, the Slann will cast some easier spells that support him or hinder you (assuming the Lore of Life, Regrowth and Earthblood, for example).

Without shamans, you (1) stand less of a chance to dispel his smaller stuff (against a typical Slann, the best you can hope for is to only be behind 1 or 2 dice, him at a +4, you at a +0), and (2) you have few ways to make up for those awful spells he's casting.
If he casts Dwellers irresistably and you cast Waaagh! the same, things should be even again. Earthblood? Bash 'em, Lads!, and so on.

8th edition magic is more powerful for both sides than 7th. That means that, if you both have magic, you'll be about equal (favoring the active player, and, in this case, the Lizardmen). If you have none, you'll be way, way far behind. Worse than you ever would be in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, actually, I was saying that the Chukkas will be better at killing the Stegadon (50%/70pts versus ~30%), but not much else.

The above suggestions are solid, of course; they're what most people do with O&G now, but it's vastly different from your list.

The problem with completely forsaking magic is as follows: ideally, the Big Spell is cast with 6 dice, resulting in IF, nuking one of your big units. Then, if there are any dice left over, the Slann will cast some easier spells that support him or hinder you (assuming the Lore of Life, Regrowth and Earthblood, for example).

Without shamans, you (1) stand less of a chance to dispel his smaller stuff (against a typical Slann, the best you can hope for is to only be behind 1 or 2 dice, him at a +4, you at a +0), and (2) you have few ways to make up for those awful spells he's casting.
If he casts Dwellers irresistably and you cast Waaagh! the same, things should be even again. Earthblood? Bash 'em, Lads!, and so on.

8th edition magic is more powerful for both sides than 7th. That means that, if you both have magic, you'll be about equal (favoring the active player, and, in this case, the Lizardmen). If you have none, you'll be way, way far behind. Worse than you ever would be in 7th.

Okay. So have wiggled points and made new list based on advise. Will be using tommorow eve, so let me know what ya think now and il let y'all know how the battle goes!

Lords

Grimgor Ironhide 375

Great Orc Shaman
Lv 4 220

Goblin Warboss
L. Armour + Shield
Martogs Best Basha
Umms Best Boss 'At 116

Heroes

Black Orc Big Boss
H. Armour + Shield
Sword of Anti Heroes 121

Core

36 Orc Boys
Additional Choppas
Command 318

36 Orc Boys (Big Boss Unit)
hw + Shields
Command 246

60 Night Goblins (Goblin Warboss unit)
Nets
2 x Fanatics
hw + Shields
Command 285

Special

36 Black Orcs (Grimgors unit)
Command 506

30 Black Orcs
Morks Spirit Totem
Command 478

4 x Spear Chukkas 140

Orc Chariot 80

Squig Herd
(12 squigs + 8 Herders)
6 frontage 120

-------------
3005

Okay its 5 Points over but can take an orc out that big boss replaces or what ever!

Looks pretty solid. But why still no BSB? Re-rolling those steadfast break tests (not to mention panic tests) is as close to a must-have as you can get in Warhammer. You could drop two black orcs and make your orc big boss into one (you'd lose the shield, but that's it), or downgrade the gobbo into a big boss and make him one (again, you'd lose the shield, but you could keep the same build).

And on a similar note, why no lobbas? Two chukkas and a lobba will probably work out better for you- it'd give you some variety.

Still not sure about the squigs or the chariot, but if it works for you...

I tend to play a Lizardmen player on a regular basis with my OnG army and he actually has a very difficult time beating me. A few things are standing out to me in your list right off the bat though...

-As said, theres no BSB! You really need one of those in 8th edition to say the least.
-Squigs... why squigs? I don't see much of a purpose in them as a unit, unless your running them rather large (30 squigs/20 herders)
-A single chariot? With my own OnG Ive noticed that one sole chariot wont do much, especially when up against stegs!
-Night Goblins?! (This is my own personal hatred towards goblins) I really dislike how squishy and grotesque goblins are, and do believe they should be replaced with more orcs.
-4 Spearchuckkas and no Rock Lobba as said previously. Definitely try and fit one if not two Lobbas in there.

With my own army, I tend to overwhelm Lizardmen players with countless numbers of Orcs. In a 3000 pt game you would probably see 3 50 man blocks of Boyz (one of them being Big 'Uns) followed by 2 40 man blocks of Black Orcs.

WAAAGH definitely does the trick with OnG and when you get that spell off, you will definitely wreak havoc.

Always always always take a lvl1 goblin shaman with staff of sneaky stealin, and a Big 'Un unit (at least 5 ranks. Horde formation is nice considering they are Orcs!) with Spirit totem. This gives your dispel pool +4 dice right off the bat, and gives him a -1 to his power dice keeping his magic alot more tame and managable.

Grimgor... Hes amazing, Im not going to lie, but I personally don't think you need him. As an Orc player your all about dirt cheap hard hitting characters and a nasty amount of core! With 375 points you could dish out another 50 man unit of Orc Boyz!

As for warmachines, you could probably make due without them so long as you have a massive amount of numbers and the magic defence to support it.

Heres a list that I would generally take against my normal Lizardmen opponent, and this seems to be extremely difficult for him to beat down, due to sheer lack of numbers, and the fact that I shut down his magic (being his only way to deal with said numbers)...

Orc Great Shaman- LvL 4 -220 (I don't throw any equipment on this guy because hes there to cast WAAAGH and thats it. You can get into combat turn 2 if you play right, and thats all that matters with this army)

Black Orc Big Boss- BSB, Heavy Armour,Charmged Shield- 119
Black Orc Big Boss- 85
Black Orc Big Boss- 85
Night Goblin Shaman- Staff of Sneaky Stealin- 100

49 Orc Boyz- Big 'Uns, Spirit Totem, Shields, Full Command- 570
50 Orc Boyz- Shields, Full Command- 318
50 Orc Boyz- Shields, Full Command- 318

39 Black Orcs- Shields, Full Command- 584
40 Black Orcs- Shields, Full Command- 598

Total- 2997

With that you have so many models sitting on the table that its extremely difficult to deal with them all, especially when your shutting down magic. Its pretty straightforward and odvious, and while it has its flaws for general usage, you can pretty well bash some Lizard face with it.

The above suggestions are pretty sound, though I'm not sure I'd say that a unit of Big Uns with the Spirit Totem needs to be "at least five ranks" in a horde formation, considering that's 550pts at the absolute minimum.

The only other thing I'll say is that goblins aren't bad. Especially in 8th. While Butlerthepug is right in saying that they can't fight, that is certainly not what they're for.

You can beat your opponent in one of two ways in war; you can pour all your strength onto his weakest point, or you can put forth just enough strength to defeat your opponent when you need to. This second tactic is tricky, and it is certainly what gobbos are about. Nothing beats tying up a huge Deathstar with a unit that cost less than 200pts...

The only reason I say at least five ranks is because in my experience, as soon as your opponent realizes you have spirit totem, that unit instantly becomes a priority and they will try to put everything into it to bring it down, and seeing as how the banner is ranked based, its better to have more than the minimum required to max out those extra dispel dice. Horde formation is really just because they are Orcs (even being Big 'Uns they are cheap considering what they do) and with 5 ranks of 10 wide, you have 25 Orcs to spare before you start loosing those extra dispel dice. 570 pts for a 50 man s4 t4 is really a steal in my opinion, especially considering they are s5 the first round of combat with a 6+ ward save (parry) and completely devistating when the WAAAGH spell goes off.

I will admit, I have been bested by a mostly goblin army before, and they are by no means "bad". I will agree that they require a completely different play style and as I tried to say in my previous post (though not directly) its just not my play style.

Speaking as a regular lizardmen player, the huge blocks of orc infantry really scare me. I've gone games where I charge a block of saurus and two stegs into a unit of orcs and they've been thrashed because I wasn't able to kill enough.

Even gobbo blocks are bad when packed with 5 great weapon bosses in front.

Next game you get try out some goblin bosses with great weapons in your goblin horde. Sure the gobling will take a beating but 15 (if your using 5) strength 6 attacks will give you a pretty good chance at winning combat.

Everything has been mostly covered, the only thing that needs to be mentioned are salamanders. They love to hit big blocks with that template. If your playing against someone using those they should be your main targets in the beginning turns. Goblin/orc magic should do the trick, along with pump wagons if you have them. And keep a BSB around too for panic tests if the salamanders manage to kill some troops.

Yeah, Salamanders wreck goblins. That's why...you need a BSB (still waitin' for a reason as to why you don't have one).

Multiple Goblin Big Bosses are a must-have, if you want to win with big blocks of goblins. If you also have orcs, you might not need them. But if you have both, then all your units are scary, and that's pretty cool. (I wouldn't go with as many as 5, though. I'd keep it cheap. Two/block seems enough to pack a punch, but not too sore a blow if you lose the unit). I'd also keep the gobbos around 5-wide, as long as you've got some Horde-orcs ready to counter-charge, anyway.

The Spirit Totem is an important device, and I'll agree that it's a target. But that's a double-edged sword. A target like that will draw fire, so you want to protect it-with more models, in this case. But the more models you add, the higher the price, and the bigger the priority it becomes for your opponent. A thousand dispel dice won't stop a Slann's irresistible Dwellers from going off, and a thousand Bigg Un's will still die in the same proportion as 20.
I think the Totem is good for a while, but it's by no means something I'd invest a sixth of my army into. Use it until the orcs die. You're in combat by then, so hopefully some of their magic isn't as useful now anyway.
I'd call it a wash between play styles.