What will the CSM versions of "Chapter Tactics" be?

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**Yzz**

Just as the Chapter Tactics rules seem to do a good job of replicating certain chapters I imagine C:CSM 5th ed. will introduce something like Legion Traits.

What do you think the Traits for each Chaos Legion would be?

**DarknessEternal**

Why would they need any? They already have cult options for Troops and marks for everything?

**goggari**

no, there are no cultists, unless you take TIG

**Lord of battles**

The current codex is craptastic!

**goggari**

AMEN!!

**Neconilis**

goggari wrote:no, there are no cultists, unless you take TIG

He didn't say cultists, he said cult troops.

**Yzz**

DarknessEternal wrote:Why would they need any?

Because unlike the SM Chapters, the Chaos Legion have no Sphess Mareen Handbook, which gives rise to even more diversity. There's more difference between an Iron Warrior and Night Lord than between a Space Wolf and Ultramarine.

DarknessEternal wrote:They already have cult options for Troops and marks for everything?

Except that Cult troops are limited to PA doods. Where are the Termies for the EC, DG, TS, & WE? Why are there Zerks without jump packs? Why can't an EC Dread take Sonic Weapons?

A sample character based on the concept from C:SM;

Yzz wrote:Addameus Thorn-------X points
WS 5 /BS 4 /S 4 (5)/T 4(5)/W 3/I 5/A 3 (4)/Ld 10/Sv 2+

Wargear: Frag & Krak Grenades, Grim Aegis, The Hammer of Doom, Servo Arm.

Special Rules:
Independant Character, Fearless, Relentless, Bionics, Combat Coordination, Legion Traits.

Bionics: Addameus has cut away any tissue that began to show signs of mutation, replacing it with cold steel. These "upgrades" give him the Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain universal special rules, as well as increasing his Strength & Toughness by 1 (already included in profile)

Grim Aegis: The Grim Aegis is a suit of Power Armour crafted by a Master Artifacer during the Great Crusade. It confers a 2+ save, but is otherwise the same as normal Power Armour.

The Hammer of Doom: Recovered from the corpse of an Iron Father, The Hammer is an oversized, two-handed, master-crafted Thunder Hammer.

Combat Coordination: Addameus has learned to use both his Servo Arm (see below) and The Hammer of Doom in near-perfect unison. As such he gains +1 Attack in Close Combat.

Servo Arm: Used primarily for repairs but capable of offence or defence, a Servo Arm can be used as a Power Fist or to repair vehicles. To repair a vehicle, Addameus cannot be Falling Back or Pinned. He must start the Movement Phase in base contact with the vehicle or inside the vehicle. Roll a D6 and if the result is 6 then either a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result is removed from the vehicle. Both the vehicle and Addameus must remain stationary for the entire Movement Phase.

Legion Traits:
A character with the Legion Traits rule alters army's composition. If an army has two characters with Legion Traits, you must pick which one set of Traits to use.
Iron Within, Iron Without!: Any Unit may be given the Relentless universal special rule at a cost of +5 points per model.
Tear It Open: May take Havocs as Troops choices. Havocs selected in this way cannot take Flamers, Meltaguns, or Plasma Guns and only two (instead of the usual four) may select heavy weapons. May take up to one Dreadnought as a Troops choice.
Bend The Machine to Your Will: Any Aspiring Champion or Chosen may replace his Close Combat Weapon with a Servo Arm for +30 points.

--Servo Arm: Used primarily for repairs but capable of offence or defence, a Servo Arm can be used as a Power Fist or to repair vehicles. To repair a vehicle, the Marine cannot be Falling Back or Pinned. He must start the Movement Phase in base contact with the vehicle or inside the vehicle. Roll a D6 and if the result is 6 then either a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result is removed from the vehicle. Both the vehicle and the Marine must remain stationary for the entire Movement Phase.

~~Yzz

**Lone Dragoon**

Honestly I don't see them making a change like that to CSM since they want to differentiate each codex. I think if they did that to CSM you'd see a large outcry against it, and the sales would drop even further for that army.

However, I do feel CSM need some lovin' too. I think the best solution would be to allow the Chaos gods to play a bigger part. For example not simply giving a group of terminators a mark and they're devotees of that cult. Instead giving a price for "legion specific" terminators that gain all the same rules (and weapon options) as the normal cults of that type. For example, having Plague marine terminators with FNP, or Khorne terminators with Furious charge.

They already have the chapter tactics in the marks, but they now have to streamline and improve it.

**Kanluwen**

Yzz wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Why would they need any?

Because unlike the SM Chapters, the Chaos Legion have no Space Marine Handbook, which gives rise to even more diversity. There's more difference between an Iron Warrior and Night Lord than between a Space Wolf and Ultramarine.

That's a terrible analogy. Space Wolves are so far beyond the purview of the Codex Astartes that they're declared heretics every other week by the Ordo Hereticus.

Plus, the "Chaos Legions" have lost a large amount of their original members and their specializations resulting in less diversity across the whole, but more individualism.

And before you say "THAT'S THE SAME THING!"--it's not. It results in less cooperation within the warbands and more competition amongst themselves.

DarknessEternal wrote:They already have cult options for Troops and marks for everything?

Except that Cult troops are limited to PA doods. Where are the Termies for the EC, DG, TS, & WE?

Uh, in the Codex under Elites?

Or are you suggesting that Chaos Terminators deserve some kind of special treatment based upon the Mark they have?

Why are there Zerks without jump packs?

Probably because the Chaos Legions have no Jump Pack troops, period, now? The vast majority of the original Legions' assault troops became Raptors, after centuries in the Warp when their packs fused with their flesh and became daemonically charged.

Why can't an EC Dread take Sonic Weapons?

That's a good question. Of which the simple answer is "oversimplified codex is oversimplified".

**Pael**

@kanulwen

I disagree with the assumption that individualism has run rampant within the legions. I would say the opposite can be true as well.

Some of legions have been within the warp which causes time to have no effect upon them. The warriors that are spewing from the eye could have just left the battle of terra a few years ago, to them, even though 10,000 years have passed in "real" time. Hence the legions should still be quite intact.

**Kanluwen**

Pael wrote:@kanulwen

I disagree with the assumption that individualism has run rampant within the legions. I would say the opposite can be true as well.

It's not an "assumption". Look at the amount of warbands that are splintered from the original Legions and the rivalry existing within remaining "original" members of the Legions.

Some of legions have been within the warp which causes time to have no effect upon them. The warriors that are spewing from the eye could have just left the battle of terra a few years ago, to them, even though 10,000 years have passed in "real" time. Hence the legions should still be quite intact.

And you're discounting casualties incurred from the various wars they've fought in realspace and the Warp.

Face facts here. The original Legions are dead, the current users of the names are just led by whatever remnants are still left but have fairly new replacement line troops.

**CajunMan**

Not necessarily. In Throne of Lies almost the entirety of the Night Lords legion gathers to attack a fortress. Over 500 original legion vehicles are present, along with original members of the legion. There are replacements, yes, but I would not say that almost all the original traitors are dead. The legions used to have many thousands of space marines, with the Word Bearers and Ultramarines(though they were by far the biggest) having around 100,000 Astartes each. Now, none of the other legions were that big, not even close. But they were still very large.

**Kanluwen**

CajunMan wrote:Not necessarily. In Throne of Lies almost the entirety of the Night Lords legion gathers to attack a fortress. Over 500 original legion vehicles are present, along with original members of the legion. There are replacements, yes, but I would not say that almost all the original traitors are dead. The legions used to have many thousands of space marines, with the Word Bearers and Ultramarines(though they were by far the biggest) having around 100,000 Astartes each. Now, none of the other legions were that big, not even close. But they were still very large.

The Night Lords Legion are also a Legion that never committed forces to extended slugging matches, rarely made stupid mistakes, didn't actually flee to the Warp proper, and continued to maintain Apothecaries, etc even after turning traitor.

So that's a terrible example to use to represent the Traitor Legions as a whole.

**CajunMan**

True, but it's not a terrible example. 10th Company may not involve itself in slugging matches, but that doesn't mean the others do. And, according to 10th Company, it has been barely a century since the Siege of Terra, though the Imperium has aged 10,000 years.

As I said, the Word Bearers had around 100,000 Astartes when the heresy started. That's the equilivent of 100 Loyalist chapters. Someone in another topic pointed out that in Dark Apostle(still have yet to read it) it has been 250 standard years for the Word Bearers since the Siege of Terra. You mean to tell me almost that many Astartes have died in 250 years?

The Black Legion was torn apart. They have many augments from other legions and renegades.

Thousand Sons escaped Propsero with around 1500-3000 Battle-brothers, so yea, their broken too, but they aren't getting any new recruits.

World Eaters and Emperor's Children split up into various warbands, but that does not mean almost all the original members are dead.

The Iron Warriors also still contain many thousands of Astartes, though many are new recruits, such as Honsou.

Dunno about the Death Guard, but I imagine they still have a lot of original members, since they are so tough.

The Alpha Legion no one is sure about.

Bottom line, time in the Warp does not equal time in real space. For many warbands, only a few centuries have past since the Siege of Terra. Yes, they have been involved in many wars, but so have Loyalists such as Dante or Calgar.

**Kanluwen**

CajunMan wrote:True, but it's not a terrible example. 10th Company may not involve itself in slugging matches, but that doesn't mean the others do. And, according to 10th Company, it has been barely a century since the Siege of Terra, though the Imperium has aged 10,000 years.

Wrong. The wording is that it "feels like it has barely been a century since the Siege of Terra".

As I said, the Word Bearers had around 100,000 Astartes when the heresy started. That's the equivalent of 100 Loyalist chapters. Someone in another topic pointed out that in Dark Apostle(still have yet to read it) it has been 250 standard years for the Word Bearers since the Siege of Terra. You mean to tell me almost that many Astartes have died in 250 years?

You're also neglecting any that have ascended to Daemonhood, turned into Spawn, etc etc.
"Dark Apostle" is also a crummy piece of writing that makes C.S. Goto's stuff look good and should be discounted when you're trying to make any kind of accurate fluff compilation.

And your number seems off. I'm only able to find mention of 4000 Word Bearers "when the Heresy started".
4 Chapters of 1000 Marines each, split into Companies of 100 Marines(Each Chapter representing a different aspect of the 'Word of Lorgar').

That's absolutely nowhere near the "100,000 Astartes" you were throwing around.

The Black Legion was torn apart. They have many augments from other legions and renegades.
Thousand Sons escaped Propsero with around 1500-3000 Battle-brothers, so yea, their broken too, but they aren't getting any new recruits.

Thousand Sons, however, are pretty much the only Legion that is immune to degradation via casualties.

World Eaters and Emperor's Children split up into various warbands, but that does not mean almost all the original members are dead.

Actually, that's exactly what has happened to the World Eaters. It's kinda related to the reason why Kharn is called "The Betrayer", y'know.

The Iron Warriors also still contain many thousands of Astartes, though many are new recruits, such as Honsou.
Dunno about the Death Guard, but I imagine they still have a lot of original members, since they are so tough.
The Alpha Legion no one is sure about.

Death Guard does not still have "a lot of original members", nor do Iron Warriors(who replace their casualties through abduction, forcible impressment, and using fast-grown cloned geneseed/Warp magicks to create new "Astartes").

Bottom line, time in the Warp does not equal time in real space. For many warbands, only a few centuries have past since the Siege of Terra. Yes, they have been involved in many wars, but so have Loyalists such as Dante or Calgar.

Once again:
"Time in the Warp does not equal time in real space".

That does not mean casualties incurred during fighting, members ascended to Daemonhood, etc are ignored.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside:
I do not see why there is such an obsession with having Chaos and Loyalist Marines on a perfectly even footing.

Just because Loyalists have one thing, doesn't mean Chaos should and vice versa.

Just because Loyalists have Chapter Tactics, for example, does not mean Chaos needs "Legion Traits".
Just because Loyalists have Drop Pods does not mean Chaos needs Dreadclaw Assault Craft, etc etc.

Quite frankly, the two need to be pushed even farther apart to the point where you can't even jokingly refer to the Traitor Astartes as "Spiky Mareenz!".

**Yzz**

Kanluwen wrote:
Yzz wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Why would they need any?

Because unlike the SM Chapters, the Chaos Legion have no Space Marine Handbook, which gives rise to even more diversity. There's more difference between an Iron Warrior and Night Lord than between a Space Wolf and Ultramarine.

That's a terrible analogy. Space Wolves are so far beyond the purview of the Codex Astartes that they're declared heretics every other week by the Ordo Hereticus.

Plus, the "Chaos Legions" have lost a large amount of their original members and their specializations resulting in less diversity across the whole, but more individualism.

And before you say "THAT'S THE SAME THING!"--it's not. It results in less cooperation within the warbands and more competition amongst themselves.

What I was trying to get at is that some of the legions (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords) are so different from Default Chaos Marines that they almost deserve their own codices. Ergo, there should be some rules to represent these differences.

Furthermore, at least two legions (WB & IW) are still very organized; The Iron Warriors still have Grand Companies and Word Bearer Hosts can as big as a standard chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They already have cult options for Troops and marks for everything?

Yzz wrote:Except that Cult troops are limited to PA doods. Where are the Termies for the EC, DG, TS, & WE?

Uh, in the Codex under Elites?

Or are you suggesting that Chaos Terminators deserve some kind of special treatment based upon the Mark they have?

Termie w/Icon of Nugle=/=Plague Marine Terminator; The entire DG legion is supposed to composed entirely of Zombie Marines. So why aren't there Zombie Raptors and Zombie Termies?

Kanluwen wrote:
Yzz wrote:Why are there Zerks without jump packs?
Probably because the Chaos Legions have no Jump Pack troops, period, now? The vast majority of the original Legions' assault troops became Raptors, after centuries in the Warp when their packs fused with their flesh and became daemonically charged.

Raptors are Jump Pack troops. And since CSM scavenge tons of armour, why wouldn't they nab some jump packs while they're looking for some sweet Mk VIII armour?

Kanluwen wrote:
Yzz wrote:Why can't an EC Dread take Sonic Weapons?

That's a good question. Of which the simple answer is "oversimplified codex is oversimplified".

Agreed

Kanluwen wrote:Just because Loyalists have Drop Pods does not mean Chaos needs Dreadclaw Assault Craft, etc etc.

Except that Drop Pods are just as integral to CSM as they are to SM.

~~Yzz

**goggari**

Oh, we do need DP for CSM it sucks that we get

when comes to the vehicles and transport (IMO...)

**CajunMan**

You should re-read Soul Hunter then.

Read The First Heretic. 100,000 battle-brothers kneel before the Emperor on Monarchia. Argel-Tal himself leads a 3,000 strong Word Bearers contingent on Isstvan V, which is only a contingent, not most of the Word Bearers present during that battle.

In the 38th millenium Angron led 50,000 Khorne Bezerkers to rampage through the Imperium. Now, obviously not all 50,000 are original World Eaters members, but to say that most of them aren't is your own assumption, not fact.

I'm not ignoring casualties taken during war or daemonhood. But not all original members have ascended, not even close. You're throwing around your own personal assumptions as proven fact, when they aren't. Show me some kind of proof that most of the original traitors are dead and then the debate is over. And just because you personally think a piece of fluff is poorly written does not dismiss it as fluff. Your opinion on something cannot dismiss it as fact.

**SonofTerra**

And your number seems off. I'm only able to find mention of 4000 Word Bearers "when the Heresy started".
4 Chapters of 1000 Marines each, split into Companies of 100 Marines(Each Chapter representing a different aspect of the 'Word of Lorgar').

Just started reading the First Heretic, and it definately mentions the chapter having 100,000 brothers

**Kanluwen**

CajunMan wrote:You should re-read Soul Hunter then.

I have. I also went back and listened to Throne of Lies again today in case I missed something, and it explicitly states that it "feels like only a century has passed since the Siege of Terra for some of the remnants of the Night Lords Legion". It doesn't say "only a century has passed".

Read The First Heretic. 100,000 battle-brothers kneel before the Emperor on Monarchia. Argel-Tal himself leads a 3,000 strong Word Bearers contingent on Isstvan V, which is only a contingent, not most of the Word Bearers present during that battle.

Haven't read "The First Heretic". And it's important to remember that the Word Bearers did have Loyalists who had to be killed off, same as other Legions that turned Traitor.

In the 38th millenium Angron led 50,000 Khorne Bezerkers to rampage through the Imperium. Now, obviously not all 50,000 are original World Eaters members, but to say that most of them aren't is your own assumption, not fact.

To say that most of them are is your own assumption.
Especially if you go and read p. 48 of the CSM 'dex, regarding Kharn and Skalathrax.

I'm not ignoring casualties taken during war or daemonhood. But not all original members have ascended, not even close. You're throwing around your own personal assumptions as proven fact, when they aren't. Show me some kind of proof that most of the original traitors are dead and then the debate is over. And just because you personally think a piece of fluff is poorly written does not dismiss it as fluff. Your opinion on something cannot dismiss it as fact.

Actually, when something is no longer printed does dismiss it as fluff. There's a reason the Word Bearers trilogy is out of print

Automatically Appended Next Post:

goggari wrote:Oh, we do need DP for CSM it sucks that we get when comes to the vehicles and transport (IMO...)

No, you don't. You should have, however, things that further delineate the fact that the Traitor Legions rely heavily upon the Warp(in the form of Sorcerers having a "Gate" ability for infantry) and have access to things the Loyalists could never dream of courtesy of the Dark Mechanicum(Teleportation devices, vehicles that blend Daemonic powers and the DM's ingenuity, etc).

**Lint**

Kanluwen wrote:No, you don't. You should have, however, things that further delineate the fact that the Traitor Legions rely heavily upon the Warp(in the form of Sorcerers having a "Gate" ability for infantry) and have access to things the Loyalists could never dream of courtesy of the Dark Mechanicum(Teleportation devices, vehicles that blend Daemonic powers and the DM's ingenuity, etc).

Yes to this. As a chaos player I don't want a bunch of "spikey" loyalist stuff. I would prefer to have a greater warp influence in my army. Rather than bands of renegades with bastardized vanilla equipment, I'd like to see more of a focus on dedication to and gifts from specific warp influences. So instead of "He once had a jump pack but spent a bunch of time in the warp and now he's a raptor" or "he's been in the warp for awhile so now he's got tentacle hands," how about a more specific mutation table?
Bring back the (un)holy numbered squads for free upgrades.
Obliterators are unique, but where's the rest of the darkmech technology?
Marks are ok, but they're just the tip of the potential for a true representation of dedication to a certain deity. And sometimes they don't make much sense, eg. Terminators with MoT? Bikers with MoN? DP with MoS, leading PM's?
Fix a couple of the fluffier discrepancies like this, and take advantage of specific dedication, and I think you can end up with something comparable to, but wholly different from chapter tactics.

**CajunMan**

Ten thousand years. To Talos, his life measured from battle to battle, crusade to crusade, it had been no more than handful of decades since his home world burned. Time was enslaved to unnatural laws in the regions of hell-space where the Traitor Legions hid from Imperial retribution. It was maddening, sometimes, to keep track. Most of his brethren no longer tried. p. 45

'Yes. That's why she's important. The Great Heresy was thousands of years ago. But to the Covenant, it has been less than a century. Less than a century since this strike cruiser hung in the heavens of Terra, as part of the greatest fleet ever amassed - the horde of the First Warmaster, Horus the Chosen. p. 232

The Word Bearers did have loyalists, but they were by far the minority. I would say less than 5 percent. I would have to hunt through the novel to find a figure.

Just because a novel is out of stock does not make it non-canon. And besides, the Word Bearers Omnibus is set to be released Jan 2012.

I'm failing to see what you are getting at about Kharn and Skalathrax. Kharn slew a bunch of guys, friend AND foe. And it says that the legion split into hundreds of warbands. That's a lot of Astartes. The warbands would vary in size, true, but if there were 100 warbands with 50 Astartes each, that would mean 5,000 Astartes . We know many warbands are bigger than that and the text says hundreds of warbands were created.

To say that most of them are is your own assumption.

The burden of proof is not on me. You were the one who came in saying almost all the original traitors were dead, which is not supported in fluff.

**ENKHANNA**

I miss 4th Ed. codex's books of chaos and legion profiles and special rules.
5th Ed. looks like all legions are the same, or that you can simply blend any kind of unit together, or combine any number of chaos gods followers as if it was just a color scheme difference.
I agree CSM should not be the twisted reflection of SM, but among chaos ranks there must be a miriad of different traitor profiles, never meaning they would be similar to loyal ones...
What I mean is that you could find traitors recently returned from the EoT, having passed for them a couple of decades after the fall of Horus as well as marines that have been lost between the warp and "this" reality for a million years, acheiving daemon status or not, and that's a huge array of possibilities that have been severely maimed in 5th Ed.

IIRC, many/most/all veteran skills (A.K.A. USR now) were first seen in second to last codex:CSM (that glorious one of books of chaos), able to be purchased 2 per marine or one + any mark of chaos, this way you could model an ancient, perverted chaos (costly) veteran or simply a regular noob traitor (cheaper than regular marine).

Just when I thought GW was about to create separate codices for most popular legions and/or chaos gods, quite on the contrary it publishes a single codex for all chaos marines to share

.
I am not complaining now (not that I wouldn't) about marine/daemon "alliance dissolution" (daemons in CSM codex are nice, but spiritless), I'm just dissapointed because this new codex looks like the former one, but with all its personality washed away.

To sum up, be it "legion traits", "veteran skills" or whatever add on that could restore legion's unique features in a way or another, some sauce back on chaos would be a welcome sight for me. I don't mean to have a high point cost, hard-@ss creator, just instill some identity on those old spiky mareens.

**AlmightyWalrus**

You've still got the 4th ed book, assuming you meant 3.5?

**HawaiiMatt**

Kanluwen wrote:
CajunMan wrote:Not necessarily. In Throne of Lies almost the entirety of the Night Lords legion gathers to attack a fortress. Over 500 original legion vehicles are present, along with original members of the legion. There are replacements, yes, but I would not say that almost all the original traitors are dead. The legions used to have many thousands of space marines, with the Word Bearers and Ultramarines(though they were by far the biggest) having around 100,000 Astartes each. Now, none of the other legions were that big, not even close. But they were still very large.

The Night Lords Legion are also a Legion that never committed forces to extended slugging matches, rarely made stupid mistakes, didn't actually flee to the Warp proper, and continued to maintain Apothecaries, etc even after turning traitor.

So that's a terrible example to use to represent the Traitor Legions as a whole.

Where are their scouts? Or did marines back in the day skip the whole scout step and go strait to full marine?

-Matt

**ENKHANNA**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:You've still got the 4th ed book, assuming you meant 3.5?

Yeah, I had all codices since 2nd Ed., what I meant was the codex released before the latest one, that could be used for 4th Ed. rules.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Where are their scouts? Or did marines back in the day skip the whole scout step and go strait to full marine?

-Matt

Indeed... Where are they? Even as servants, spies or lackeys to regular traitor marines, they have plenty of background room to fit chaos forces.

**Kanluwen**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
CajunMan wrote:Not necessarily. In Throne of Lies almost the entirety of the Night Lords legion gathers to attack a fortress. Over 500 original legion vehicles are present, along with original members of the legion. There are replacements, yes, but I would not say that almost all the original traitors are dead. The legions used to have many thousands of space marines, with the Word Bearers and Ultramarines(though they were by far the biggest) having around 100,000 Astartes each. Now, none of the other legions were that big, not even close. But they were still very large.

The Night Lords Legion are also a Legion that never committed forces to extended slugging matches, rarely made stupid mistakes, didn't actually flee to the Warp proper, and continued to maintain Apothecaries, etc even after turning traitor.

So that's a terrible example to use to represent the Traitor Legions as a whole.

Where are their scouts? Or did marines back in the day skip the whole scout step and go straight to full marine?
-Matt

I'd assume they skipped the whole "Scout" step back then, but still had full Astartes filling a similar role just because the Astartes weren't stupid and knew the value of stealth and insurgency over just blowing things up.