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So...there is a tournament coming around my FLGS soon and sadly I am short of a few important models to make my 1500 list work as a 1750 list, so I was wondering about something...

How viable would it be(I presume it is legal, I couldn't find anything in the BRB that prohibits me from it) to buy a Wave Serpent for 5-man squad of Dire Avengers, then put them into a Falcon while boarding the Serpent with 10 Harlequins with Jain Zar inside?

There would also be a Farseer in a nearby full 10-man squad Dire Avenger Serpent to Doom the target I want to attack with my Harlies + Jain to increase their effectiveness.

I'll use 2 DAVU Falcons as scoring units, while the aggresive part of the army would be the Avengers and the Harlies.

Like I said, it's not what I usually use and I like my other list a lot better, but right now I'd like to know if this combo has some merit, even if it's not cookie-cutter competitive.

The DA would have to start inside or close to their Wave Serpent. You would have to embark in the falcon afterwards.

Note that harlies would loose their flip belt ability if Jain Zar joins them. That being one of their best assets, I'm not sure Jain Zar should be embarking with them.

1) Phoneix lords can only join warriors of their own aspect, who consequently become fearless. So you cannot put her with harlequins. Banshees yes, harlequins no.
2) Harlequins cannot take a wave serpent as dedicated transport; falcons only

severedblue wrote:1) Phoneix lords can only join warriors of their own aspect, who consequently become fearless. So you cannot put her with harlequins. Banshees yes, harlequins no.
2) Harlequins cannot take a wave serpent as dedicated transport; falcons only

1) Phoenix Lords can join other units. They cannot join other Aspect Warriors that aren't of their aspect. Jain Zar can join the Harlequins, but I'm not sure why you'd want to (Asurmen + Avengers is a pretty tight package, especially with a farseer backing them up).

2) Harlequins cannot take -any- dedicated transport. But, what the OP is asking is legal. Here's how:

Start with the Dire Avengers inside the Falcon (the Falcon is a Heavy choice and as such can have anyone starting inside it). That leaves the WS open. You cannot start the Harlequins inside the transport, since it is not their dedicated transport, but you can begin them just behind it, or within 2" of it's doors. Then, on turn 1, embark them.

It's important to note, however, that the WS won't be able to turbo-boost the turn they embark. But otherwise, yes, it's legal.


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Lord Rogukiel wrote:The DA would have to start inside or close to their Wave Serpent. You would have to embark in the falcon afterwards.

This is incorrect. There is nothing stating that the unit that bought a Dedicated Transport must begin in it, or even with it. Just no other unit can begin in their transport.

Puma713 is correct.

Instead of Jain Zar, take Yriel as he is cheaper, very powerful in assault, and gives a bonus to reserves if you choose to go that route. Stick the Doom/fortune seer in the squad with the harlies and yriel (or Jain Zar) and you have an incredibly powerful unit...honestly it is probably overkill in most situations. You can count on it to destroy most anything it hits, though.

puma713 wrote:This is incorrect. There is nothing stating that the unit that bought a Dedicated Transport must being in it, or even with it. Just no other unit can begin in their transport.

I stand corrected

Reecius wrote:Puma713 is correct.

Instead of Jain Zar, take Yriel as he is cheaper, very powerful in assault, and gives a bonus to reserves if you choose to go that route. Stick the Doom/fortune seer in the squad with the harlies and yriel (or Jain Zar) and you have an incredibly powerful unit...honestly it is probably overkill in most situations. You can count on it to destroy most anything it hits, though.

Agreed. I use Yriel with a Seer Council (in a WS) and it can be devastating, especially with Eldrad backing them up.

Thing is I don't own Yriel.

I don't even own a regular Autarch(which my usual list relies upon because of often reserve games and outflankers so I proxied it so far) because the store I made the order from forgot to ship it. I happen to have Jain Zar because a guy was selling her real cheap and I thought why not, she's a Phoenix Lord after all, even if they're not exactly good on the tabletop, they look nice on the shelf.

The Eldar FAQ states that a phoenix lord may only join squads of their aspect

statu wrote:The Eldar FAQ states that a phoenix lord may only join squads of their aspect

... no it doesn't

Folks, Jain Zar cannot join aspect warriors aside from Howling Banshees. Other than that, there is no rule anywhere prohibiting her from joining other non-aspect squads. With that out of the way, the jury is still out for the relative usefulness of this combo.

Thanks chaps; I learned something new today. So many little tricks to squeeze things out of the rules. I guess I should read them more carefully for what is specifically prohibited and what is not.

I got the "falcon and harlies" thing from an article a while back... the chap used falcon for delivery, harlies and veil of tears, hopping from unit-to-unit using hit and run to keep them from being in the open.

The unit sounds cool, but it's not going to be effective.

Jain Zar looks really great at first. On the charge she gets 5 Str 7 attacks at I10!!!

But, she only has 3 W at T 4. And, she costs 190 points with no invul save.

If you want to run her, sticking her with Harlies is the best bet. But, even then, I'd rather take Yriel.

Personally I'd say its too expensive to be viable; Jain Zar, Harlies and WS is about 500pts and cannot charge from the vehicles. I guess you could give it star engines and bomb it up there for them to get out next turn, but otherwise I think it's too expensive.

No doubt, it's very deadly but it could be 'too deadly'. Harlies are a nasty bunch in assault as it is, add Jain Zar into this and it could be overkill?

I doubt its use, but I think it could well be worth a try I guess. Then again, would it be better just running her with cheaper and then-fearless Banshees instead?

Not effective? Not cost-effective you mean? Probably, still, there's the issue of me having enough Eldar just for 1500 army. And I'm guessing a unit of harlies is still more effective with Jain Zar than without?

Araenion wrote:Not effective? Not cost-effective you mean? Probably, still, there's the issue of me having enough Eldar just for 1500 army. And I'm guessing a unit of harlies is still more effective with Jain Zar than without?

Well, if you've got 1500 points in models and are playing a 1750 game, then I'd suggest running Jain Zar rather and being 60 points short rather than staying 250 points short.

I mean, she may be a liability for a KP, but I'd still take her.

Yeah, she's not bad, but Yriel is far more efficient.

The PLs I like are Maugan Ra (who goes great in foot harlies along with a death jester) and Karandras who can go solo or with harlies, too.

The rest of them aren't bad, just kind of meh.

Grakmar wrote:Well, if you've got 1500 points in models and are playing a 1750 game, then I'd suggest running Jain Zar rather and being 60 points short rather than staying 250 points short.

I mean, she may be a liability for a KP, but I'd still take her.

My thoughts exactly.

Grakmar wrote:The unit sounds cool, but it's not going to be effective.

Jain Zar looks really great at first. On the charge she gets 5 Str 7 attacks at I10!!!

But, she only has 3 W at T 4. And, she costs 190 points with no invul save.

If you want to run her, sticking her with Harlies is the best bet. But, even then, I'd rather take Yriel.

I usually do too. Only thing is, Jain Zar can take a Power Fist to the face and keep on fighting, whereas Yriel can't.

That's also true, but Yriel's got a 4+ chance to not worry about instant death in the first place...

Just Dave wrote:That's also true, but Yriel's got a 4+ chance to not worry about instant death in the first place...

True, true. Which is one reason I love Asurmen. 10 Dire Avengers in a WS with Asurmen. Stick Eldrad in the WS too. Fortune Asurmen and his unit. Doom some unfortunate unit. Guide Asurmen and the Avengers. Disembark, leaving Eldrad in the WS, Bladestorm and assault. You'll be going first most of the time with re-rolls to wound. Asurmen can cause Instant Death and Defend gives the squad you're fighting 1 less attack each. If that's not bad enough, all of the Dire Avengers have a 4+/5++ and Asurmen himself is a 2+/4++ EW. And they can all re-roll their saves. Not to mention, they're Fearless.

It's a tough nut to crack.

I completely agree. Eldar can build some nasty units like that, very nasty units, particularly with Farseers in tow.

They always face the same problem though; cost and usability.

Well, Jain Zar is the cheapest PL, and is still much better than Baharroth, who's just a cool exarch.

IIRC, Jain Zar's furious charge ability is transferred to the squad, which means all the harlies will be striking at s4 on the charge. Furthermore, she also grants the squad counter-attack, ensuring they always have that extra attack.

Expensive, yes, but if used properly, very hard to kill. Go for it

Jain Zar doesn't transfer her Furious Charge on the squad she is with, sadly. In this case however, Harlequins themselves have FC, so it doesn't matter if she does or doesn't.


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Also, I must say I rolled some dice and did some math here...this combo rolls over squads of Boyz, Nobz, Terminators(assault or otherwise), MCs of any kind, vehicles not AV 13+, etc...

Is there something someone can think of that this squad would have problems with in melee? Just for information sake, I'd like to know what to watch out for.

Noob Bikers (each of which differently equipped) eventually cause problems.
If you take a full squad and a Waaghbikerboss, then by wound allocation, 11 wounds have to be infilicted before one Biker goes down and the Bikers may have cyborg bodies.

Araenion wrote:Jain Zar doesn't transfer her Furious Charge on the squad she is with, sadly. In this case however, Harlequins themselves have FC, so it doesn't matter if she does or doesn't.


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Also, I must say I rolled some dice and did some math here...this combo rolls over squads of Boyz, Nobz, Terminators(assault or otherwise), MCs of any kind, vehicles not AV 13+, etc...

Is there something someone can think of that this squad would have problems with in melee? Just for information sake, I'd like to know what to watch out for.

Swarmlord with Guard ... no getting round T6 ... banshee are wounding on 6's and hitting on 5 (fearless so warshout does nothing to his WS9) ... also the swarm lord has a 4++ in cc ... just run away

I was talking about Harlequins mate, not Banshees.Jain Zar still makes a mess of T6.

Araenion wrote:I was talking about Harlequins mate, not Banshees.Jain Zar still makes a mess of T6.

Same difference, with the exception that they have a lower save (vs the HG)... mind you forgot to mention the lash whips -1 one attack and the fact that he can use a psychic power to reduce their WS and BS to one ... though leach essence is less powerful.

Same difference with the added benefit of rending.

And the psychic powers are made extra difficult by Runes of Warding on the Farseer.


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But the lash whips are a problem, I agree.

Araenion wrote:Same difference with the added benefit of rending.

? do you mean furious charge rather then rending?

banshee roll to wound 1/6 ignores armour ...
Harlequins roll to wound 1/6 which also causes rending so ignores armour (ok they can wound on a 5+ with furiose charge but a 3+ armour save negates that quite a bit)

... unless your still thinking of 4th where you roll rending on the hit roll ...