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Well overral i am pretty happy with the list, Chaos warriors with great weapons seem to do fine (however I must stop trying to kill SM with them lol), main thing I am trying to figure out is what is the best wizard to support the army, do I go Lore of Fire which has some nice offensive spells and a few nice buffs, lore of shadow to debuff the hell out of my opponent (would be handy against HE) or stick with lore of Tzeentch (which is pretty hit and miss).

Sorcerer Lord
- lvl4
- Lore of Shadow/Fire
- Armour of Destiny
- 3rd eye of Tzeentch
Total 345pts


Lords: 345pts

Exalted Champion
- Mark of Khorne
- Juggernaut
- Great Weapon
- Charmed shield
- Talismans of Preservation
Total 233pts


Heroes: 233pts

18 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Nurgle
- Standard
- Musician
- Great Weapons
- Banner of Rage
Total 389pts

19 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Fullcommand
- Shields
- Blastered Standard
Total 394

5 Marauder Horsemen
- Flails
- Throwing weapons
- Musician
Total 86pts

5 Marauder Horsemen
- Flails
- Throwing Spears
- Musician
Total 86pts

5 Warhounds
Total 30pts

5 Warhounds
Total 30pts


Core: 1015pts

8 Chaos Knights
- Mark of Khorne
- Fullcommand
Total 400pts


Special: 400pts

Hellcannon
Total 205pts

Rare: 205pts

GW really working for you? I'd hate to give up the Warrior's Int5 to strike last.

Yeah working fine for me, the only army they have come a little unstuck against is HE but that was simply because i used them against the wrong target, they have uses, its mainly against T4 infantry and heavy cav leaving my cavalry free to go and punch through weak infantry units back up by some marauder horsemen, MoN is however what makes them them viable, its gives them enough survivability against shooting and with WS3 hiitting them on a 5+ striking last is far less of a issue. I will happily run them into a unit of Saurus, orcs, halberdiers. You have other things to keep in mind suhc as magic, spells that debuff the strength, increase armour save arn't as important, you need a 3+ save to even get a save in the first place. I have also been thinking if I was to go with lore of fire they are the perfect unit for killing STank, caste flaming sword, 24 S6 attacks, with 24 dice thats whats (with +1 to wound) thats 8 wounds, 4 failed saves .

Anyways back to the question, whats the better wizard (for the same points or less) to support my army?

So what no one can get past the fact I am using great weapon warriors and suggest a lore other than Lore of tzeentch?

itsonlyme wrote:So what no one can get past the fact I am using great weapon warriors and suggest a lore other than Lore of tzeentch?

How about Heavens? It's about a full 180 from Tizz, with so-so offense but fantastic augments / hexes. Seems to me that with great weapons you want every dude that swings to be inflicting maximum damage, which means you're going to need rerolls. How about some harmonic convergence? Rerolling 1's means more hits (often @ 3+ to start!), and more wounds (often @ 2+ to start!) from your angry lumberjacks. It's also grand for armor saves, particularly on your tizz guys with 3+ armor or your jugger with his 1+ save. The reroll 6+ hit is clearly nice to smash the enemy hammer units with (particularly ones who need to poison or KB your tin cans), and really I shouldn't bash the offense too hard - t-bolt and lightning are impressively strong (just not made for anti-horde duty), and comets can make a real mess of things

- Salvage

Cheers for you suggestion! I haven't really looked at the lore all that closely before and i am not very tempted by it, my only concern would be that it doesn't really give me any tools to deal with things like steam tanks which would mean I would hope I could 3rd eye lore of metal of my opponent or get lucky with a hellcannon, some people have been giving me the impression I have been missing something with the Lore of tzeentch so i don't know.

My games with using tzeentch magic haven't really left me thinking it was all that amazing, treason is good and I have used that to good effect on units like SM or white lions but the rest of lore does seem rather hit and miss, Pand is good at wasting opponents powerdice at the start of the phase or helping a hellcannon panic a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is Heavens the only option then? I mean I have been looking at fire and a few spells caught me eye:

Fireball, flame cage, flaming sword, firestorm.

Shadow all seems like another useful one, would actually be handy for dealing with HE elites in H2H (-D3 I).

Death I am not 100% sure about.

Well I made some changes to the list, any suggestions other than using halberd over great weapons?


Sorcerer Lord
- lvl4
- Lore of Death
- Talismans of Preservation
- Ironcurse Icon
- 3rd eye of Tzeentch
Total 345pts


Lords: 345pts

Exalted Champion
- Mark of Khorne
- Juggernaut
- Sword of Anti Heroes
- Charmed shield
- Dragonbane Gem
- Favor of the gods
Total 220pts


Heroes: 220pts

18 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Nurgle
- Standard
- Musician
- Great Weapons
- Banner of Rage
Total 389pts

19 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Fullcommand
- Shields
- Standard of Displine
Total 369

5 Marauder Horsemen
- Flails
- Throwing weapons
- Musician
Total 86pts

5 Marauder Horsemen
- Flails
- Throwing Spears
- Musician
Total 86pts

5 Warhounds
Total 30pts

5 Warhounds
Total 30pts


Core: 990pts

8 Chaos Knights
- Mark of Khorne
- Fullcommand
- Blastered Standard
Total 440pts


Special: 440pts

Hellcannon
Total 205pts

Rare: 205pts

Halberds seem to be a more than a fair middleground over using GW's.

+2 strength is good, but at the cost of an inititiative value that's beaten by just about only Dark and High Elves is something I couldn't stomach if it were me.

I posted an army list not long ago in battle reports where I used a list with Lore of Death. It works great with Doom and Darkness + the Hellcannon. You blast the unit that's D&D's and now that unit has to take a -4 Leadership panic test. Yikes!

Also, I dont know if Steamtanks are any different, but if it's a Warmachine or counts as a Warmachine it auto-fails initiative tests, which means it dies to the Sun.

Sucks that the commander has such a high leadership value.

To be honest though, I think in your list you might consider Necrotic Phylactery. It gives you immunity to Lore of Death and Nurgle and you auto pass characteristic tests.

It sure would suck if you rolled a misfire on the artillery dice and black holed your own wizard.



I'd run it like this...



2200.0 Pts - Warriors of Chaos Roster

Sorcerer Lord (1#, 340.0 pts)
1 Sorcerer Lord @ 340.0 pts (Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Life Leeching)
1 Talisman of Preservation
1 Third Eye of Tzeentch
1 Life Leeching
1 1. Aspect of the Dreadknight
1 4. Doom and Darkness
1 5. The Fate of Bjuna
1 6. The Purple Sun of Xerus

Exalted Hero (2#, 230.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 230.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Battle Standard Bearer; Frenzy)
1 Juggernaut of Khorne (Causes Fear; Magic Resistance (1))
1 Whip of Subversion
1 Ironcurse Icon

Chaos Warriors (20#, 403.0 pts)
20 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle @ 403.0 pts (Mark of Nurgle; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor)
1 Banner of Rage

Chaos Warriors (20#, 390.0 pts)
19 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 390.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Champion of Tzeentch (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Rapturous Standard

Marauder Horsemen (5#, 86.0 pts)
5 Marauder Horsemen @ 86.0 pts (Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Flail; Throwing Spear; Fast Cavalry)
5 Warhorse

Marauder Horsemen (5#, 86.0 pts)
5 Marauder Horsemen @ 86.0 pts (Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Flail; Throwing Spear; Fast Cavalry)
5 Warhorse

Chaos Knights (8#, 400.0 pts)
7 Chaos Knights of Khorne @ 400.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Causes Fear; Frenzy)
1 Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
8 Chaos Steed

Squad (4#, 205.0 pts)
1 Hellcannon @ 205.0 pts (Causes Terror; Large Target; Unbreakable)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour)

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30.0 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds @ 30.0 pts

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30.0 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds @ 30.0 pts

Validation Report:
Army Subtype: Chaos Army; Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game
Exactly one character must be the general

Total Roster Cost: 2200.0

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com


I understand the desire for hounds to screen your warriors with, though I generally dont run them. I'm also not a fan of Nurgle as a warrior mark since it's conditions are far less likely to go off than always having a ward save from Tzeentch, but then there's the halberds to consider.

I really only suggest changing your Exalted hero and a few commands around. I don't like Chaos Champions in a unit if there's no Warshrine in the army. They cant get Eye of the Gods rolls without it. Further, the FAQ says they have to submit and accept challenges even though they dont have the Eye of the Gods special rules. They're good, but I'd rather them work for combat rezz than die to a scar vet or some other stabby hero. Note I left the champ in the tizz block. That's to eat a challenge aimed at your sorc.

The Whip of Subversion is my favorite Chaos weapon. Our initiative is always so much higher than everyone else that were bound to do some wounds first, even in challenges. And if you are facing the rare army faster than you, go for their monster stuff.

Here's a small sampling of what that entails...

Giants, Manticores, Daemon Princes, Chaos Warshrines, Great Unclean One, Corpse Carts, Varghulfs, Hellpit Abominations, War Hydras, Treemen, Stegadons and Griffons.. to name the good ones.

AND if affects anything designated as a character, and I6 is faster than most of those as well.

It's no less character specific than Sword of Anti Heroes, but it has the added benefit of letting you punch Hydras into submission. Normally I would advise running a potion of speed with it, but since you wont be fighting dragons at 2200 points you probaby wont need an initiative higher than 6 unless theres a lot of Daemon players at your store.

I didnt know what you were planning with the Banner of Discipline, but I like Rapturous Standardso much more, especially in a unit with Tizz warriors. They're so hard to route if by some weird instance they lose in combat rezz. It's even harder if you keep your bsb in range.

anyways... that's my 2 cents.

Cheers for the feedback, you have certainly given me some things to think about, Necrotic Phylactery is certainly a good idea, I always forget about that item (just a shame it doesn't work against daemon lore of nurgle :( )

I can't say I'm 100% sure about your jugger build, I think as a BSB and no protection from weapons that can snipe he's going to die even quicker than my one! I do think a charmed shield is a must if you taking a jugger hero simply because of the lack of LoS roll. I am also not so sure about the whip, I mean it sounds good on paper but like with a hydra you still have to wound, get past its armour and its regen and its handlers save.

The things you brought up did however make me think how I am lacking some fire based attacks, it might be a idea if I can get a flaming banner in the list.

As for great weapons it doesn't bother me one bit, they look cool at the end of the day i might just make them Khorne warriors however and give them some sort of banner.

*edit*

I thought I would add this is in http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/303429.page

Link to my log, some my reason for being stubborn on changing certain things is simply because of the models, its more case of trying to figure out how to make models I like reasonably effective on the table, my jugger hero is a prime example of this, I simply have spent to much time on the guy just to go and slap a banner on him, because I have spent so much time on the guy I also want to make sure he is in the army. Its really why I am struggling to get the army 100% right :(

Rather then slapping a banner onto the model you could just model a banner on a 25mm base and place it behind/beside your jugger hero. Not sure how that would go over in a tournament setting, but for a friendly game it should be alright.

I have been having a thought about my sorcerer, what would people think if I changed him for:

Sorcerer
lvl2
MoT
Staff of Sorcerery
Necrotic Phylactery
3rd eye of Tzeentch
210pts

Frees up 135pts, he should be able to provide the same sort of magic phase as my lvl4, sure he is slightly weaker but I could do something like making the great weapon warriors Chosen? more hounds, jiggle the points around to maybe get a unit of marauders with MoK and great weapons (drop a unit of marauder horsemen maybe).

The whole point of a lvl 4 in my mind to knowing more spells for greater versatility.

Eye of Tzeentch gives you that in spades. My suggestion would be to drop the hounds, drop all the Marauder horsies, lower your chaos blocks to 18 each only giving a full command to your Tzeentch block to eat challenges aimed at your sorcerer, and add Wulfrik and as many armorless flail marauders of Khorne as you can.

Wulfrik is a great character who is ridiculously under appreciated. He wins games, as far as I'm concerned.

I actually can't use Wulfrik as the torunament is no special characters, no tripple specials, no double rares, max of 4 warmachines (stanks count as one), things like power scroll, book hoeth are banned (I should have said this in my first post :( )

It will also involve missions, also the main reason for the champion in the knights is so he can issues challenges raher than my exalted. What I have found is I end up fighting unit champions and my jugger never gets to fight (I tried so many games without one and was happy to see the FAQ about unit champions).

I can certainly drop the marauders however, I am happy with hounds, they are not just for screening units but dragging out deployment, guarding flanks, charging warmachines and drawing fire away from units. A HE player I know hates them because they are so few points I don't want to waste a unit shooting them but if you ignore them they go straight into his RBT's and stop them from firing. 3x2 formation is perfect for them to nip through small gaps and charge cannons

Like with the guard flankings if I can't break a unit on the charge I will try and move my hounds and angel them so any counter charge hits them rather than my unit and then overrun past my unit.

I agree with you Wulfrik is under appreciated , so are my doggies :(

I can certainly lower all units of warriors to 18 (saves me some painting!), I have about 30 marauders with great weapons painted, I have a load more I can put together as well (I could do a unit of 40), with a unit like it would be very cool if I could fit in a BSB as well, give them MoT and him blastered standard





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here we go, revision.

Sorcerer Lord
- lvl4
- Lore of Death
- Talismans of Preservation
- 3rd eye of Tzeentch
Total 340pts


Lords: 340pts

Exalted Champion
- Mark of Khorne
- Juggernaut
- Ogre Blade
- Charmed shield
- Dragonbane Gem
Total 225pts


Heroes: 220pts

18 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Khorne
- Standard
- Musician
- Great Weapons
- Banner of Eternal Flame
Total 364pts

17 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Fullcommand
- Shields
Total 322

40 Chaos Marauders
- Mark of Khorne
- Standard
- Musician
Total 242pts


5 Warhounds
Total 30pts

5 Warhounds
Total 30pts


Core: 988pts

8 Chaos Knights
- Mark of Khorne
- Fullcommand
- Blastered Standard
Total 440pts


Special: 400pts

Hellcannon
Total 205pts

Rare: 205pts

or

Sorcerer
- lvl2
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Staff of Sorcery
- Necrotic Phylactery
- 3rd eye of Tzeentch
Total 210pts

Exalted Champion
- Mark of Khorne
- Juggernaut
- Ogre Blade
- Charmed shield
- Ironcurse Icon
Total 225pts


Heroes: 435pts

18 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Khorne
- Standard
- Musician
- Great Weapons
- Banner of Eternal Flame
Total 364pts

17 Chaos Warriors
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Fullcommand
- Shields
- Blastered Standard
Total 362

35 Chaos Marauders
- Mark of Khorne
- Standard
- Musician
Total 217pts


5 Warhounds
Total 30pts

5 Warhounds
Total 30pts


Core: 1003pts

8 Chaos Knights
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Fullcommand
- Banner of rage
Total 425pts


Special: 425pts

Hellcannon
Total 205pts

Warshrine
Total 130pts


Rare: 335pts

*edit*

Infreak wrote:Rather then slapping a banner onto the model you could just model a banner on a 25mm base and place it behind/beside your jugger hero. Not sure how that would go over in a tournament setting, but for a friendly game it should be alright.

Sorry mate, I didn't see your post before, I am not 100% sure about that, it says in the rule pack no count as and I think that might be stretching it a bit far.