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I've bought me some High Elves (battalion box and Island of Blood) and need some advice before i start building units up.

Whats the best points value to start learning at?. I assume 1000pts is about right? What do i need to consider when selecting unit sizes etc? The plan is to work out a smallish list that'll help me learn the game primarily. I'll build and prime this small list first then play it as such as I get round to start painting/building/priming it and everything else.

I'm thinking units to start:

Mage
Spearmen (32 incl. Command 4x8 is fine for spears i believe),
Seaguard (24 incl. Command). Might drop one and stick the Mage in here?
White Lions of Chrace (10 incl Command).
Lion Chariot.

I can't be far off 1000pts here but I also have available:

20 Swordmasters of Hoeth.
Lord on Griffon.
20 Archers.
Bolt Thrower.
Plastic Hero box.
Plastic Mage box.
White Lions character.

Any tips or help would be much appreciated.

never run a unit 4xanything. You only get ranks if the unit is at least 5 wide.

Your anvil can be your spearmen, since they will be steadfast for a while, so i would drop the white lions for a unit of swordmasters for something killy.

just my 2 cents.

I meant 8 wide by 4 deep. I'll go back an re-read the rules for them. I thought they all got to attack up to four deep.

I've only started going through the rules and I've never played earlier editions.

Right, I've made a 2500pts list out of the minis I have or will have soon. i can break this down for smaller games to learn with but at least I've got something less general for people to comment on.

Prince w/ Griffon, Star lance & Armour of Caledor 415pts.

Noble BSB w/ heavy Srmour and Shield 116pts (not really to sure where/what to do with this guy).

Level 2 Mage w/ Silver Wand 145pts (again unsure)

20 Archers w/ full command and light armour 265pts

24 Lothern Sea Guard w/ full command and shields 337pts

36 Spearmen w/ full command 349pts

5 Dragon Princes of Caledor w/ full command 200pts

Lion Chariot of Chrace 140pts

20 Swordmaster of Hoeth w/ full command 330pts

5 Reavers w/ full command 133pts.


Total: 2430.


Any tips, advice etc much appreciated. particularly in terms of optimal unit sizes so I can work out how my movement trays should be! I expect to be up against a wide range of armies so an all-comers is what I'm aiming for although its for friendly games.

Thanks

Vet Sgt Ezekiel wrote:Right, I've made a 2500pts list out of the minis I have or will have soon. i can break this down for smaller games to learn with but at least I've got something less general for people to comment on.

Prince w/ Griffon, Star lance & Armour of Caledor 415pts.

Noble BSB w/ heavy Srmour and Shield 116pts (not really to sure where/what to do with this guy).

Level 2 Mage w/ Silver Wand 145pts (again unsure)

20 Archers w/ full command and light armour 265pts

24 Lothern Sea Guard w/ full command and shields 337pts

36 Spearmen w/ full command 349pts

5 Dragon Princes of Caledor w/ full command 200pts

Lion Chariot of Chrace 140pts

20 Swordmaster of Hoeth w/ full command 330pts

5 Reavers w/ full command 133pts.


Total: 2430.


Any tips, advice etc much appreciated. particularly in terms of optimal unit sizes so I can work out how my movement trays should be! I expect to be up against a wide range of armies so an all-comers is what I'm aiming for although its for friendly games.

Thanks

The BSB I would find ways to improve his survivability via magic items or give him a magic banner that compliments him and the unit he is with. Otherwise it looks an interesting army list that doesn't seem to have any glaring problems.

Oh and welcome to fantasy!

Prince w/ Griffon, Star lance & Armour of Caledor 415pts.

Noble BSB w/ Drgon Armour, shield and Lion Standard 143pts.

Level 2 Mage w/ Silver Wand 145pts (again unsure)

20 Archers w/ full command and light armour 265pts

24 Lothern Sea Guard w/ full command and shields 337pts

36 Spearmen w/ full command 349pts

5 Dragon Princes of Caledor w/ full command 200pts

Lion Chariot of Chrace 140pts

20 Swordmaster of Hoeth w/ full command 330pts

5 Reavers w/ full command 133pts.


Total: 2430.

Cool, that makes sense. Thanks.

I'll stick him in with the Spearmen with the Lion Standard as amended above.

Oh sorry if I didn't make it clearer. You can only give the BSB a magic standard OR magic items.

It's cool, thanks to army builder I noticed the either/or choice.

I was considering the world dragon banner also.

What about sticking the Mage in with the Seaguard? Or is the Archer unit a safer option?

Thanks.

Well think about it this way. Do you want your mage stuck in close combat where he cant cast most of his spells and very possibly get killed fighting alongside the spearmen? I would put him with the archers given the choice. Anything charging them will stand a good chance of being whittled down by stand and shoot reactions. Letting them have a good chance of surviving what doesnt get peppered with arrows. The world dragon banner sounds good if you know you'll be fighting a lot of offensive magic users. Otherwise banner of sorcery for the extra power dice might be better for you if you want to guarantee having enough power dice to cast what you want.

Well, im no fan of either swords masters or seaguards as IMO they're just to frail for their points costs. Phenix guard are awesome, spearmen too.
U dont need FC on either the archers or the reavers. Sabe the points and split the archers up in 2.
U need a couple of eagles man!
Griffin kinda sux, get an arch mage(keep the lev 2 as well). U are playing HE after all.
Maybe a bolt thrower?

I would advice you to split up the swordmasters into 2-3 units, that way they will be less exposed to massed missile fire and less likely to panic and run away after it.
I myself are a huge fan of them for their ability to thin out most units and aslong as you keep their unit size small you should be able to get the most of all their attacks before they start dying(if you get them into close combat before that is).

As far as trying out things like Phoenix Guard and great eagles it'll have to wait until i get to grips with what I've got.The stuff in the list above is what I own at the mo. I'm not planning on running a fully optimised list when I'm still learning as I'll get pumped easy, to begin with anyway. Some good points which i'll try out by proxying units though. Certainly food for thought, thanks.

I'll try the magic banners, and 2 units on the Swordmasters. The archers I'll trim points on and split as suggested.

Good point also regarding the Mage being in a unit thats less likely to be in CC. Sounds obvious now I think about it!

Thanks for the advice guys it all helps.

Try to tie an enemy block up with spearelves and charge their flank with the swordsmasters. Chomp!
Well, swordsmasters can be good as long as they dont get shot up. Keep them small, hidden and remember they are there to do damage.
I think you could run the seaguarda aa regular spearelves instead, and then have two reliable bocks. Mass infantery is how you win in 8th ed.

Cool,I'll bear that strategy in mind.

Is there an optimum size for Spearmen? I noticed someone at my local club running a 12/13 wide and 4 deep unit!

Wow that's a big gamble. Remember bigger the unit the more likely artillery and magic templates will chew them up. If you decide to go for horde for maximum attacks bring at least 40. so you'd have 4 deep 10 wide. If they lose too many ranks you can reform them 5 wide to build ranks up again. Or field them smaller to begin with as 5 wide for a cost effective unit. Its hard for elves to go in a horde formation as they are expensive points wise to field. I guess your area doesn't see a lot of shooting/artillery in games? Either that or he's really lucky.

Id field the 5 wide and either 5 or 6 deep (25-30 men). This way they have static combat res and still fight in 4 ranks( with their special rule thing, in horde they actually fight in 5 ranks).
Regarding WMs i'd say its a good thing the enemy is shooting at them and not at anything else more valuble!

What about running a unit of 28 at 7 wide? That way the entire front rank gets attacks, as well as all the models behind them?

or 50 with 10wide and 5deep
I faced some swordsmen on a Bring in Battle (lots of players bring 1/2 units each and then team up good and bad) and my Black orcs were sliced to ribbons.
the champion even slayed a giant on its own(OMG) so he were allowed to give it 25points of Magic Items and field it as a hero in the Bring in Battles that were to come

Cool, I'll start off experimenting with a 9 x 4 deep and see how that goes. i'll be sure to try the options mentioned.

Any advice on how to use the Reavers effectively?

I think you should at least have at least five ranks in a spearelves unit, you should always count on losing a few, and if you do it doesnt matter if you have five ranks.
Remember to use the reavers as little more the a scaring tool, run em up out of sight of a unit and force him to try threaten it and then you just flee and flank charge him. Also useful for making ur opponent paranoid about his WMs, dont count on em actually killing anything, just messing about.

I would suggest that you stick to having a lot of only 1 of the Core choices, as opposed to some or a few of all 3. If you want to go a more "Melee Intensive" route, use Spearmen. For "Shooting Intensive", use Archers. Sea Guards are, IMHO, too expensive for their points. With Spearmen, I would use a bigger block of at least 40 models. I usually run a single block of 60, with Full Command, and a War Banner in bigger games. With Archers, I tend to keep them in numbers between 20 and 30. Full Command isn't necessary, but a Musician would be good. However, I would stay away from using Light Armor. A 6+ base armor save is too easily surpassed, and with that many Archers, it'll be expensive to get them all Light Armor.

In regards to your Lord, I would use an Archmage instead of the Prince on the Griffon. Having more access to magic would be better support for your army, IMHO. While the Prince is a good beatstick, the Archmage, I think, will earn it's points back faster. And if you do decide to go with the Archmage, get him the Silver Wand and the Talisman of Preservation (4+ Ward Save). However, if you insist on using the Prince on the Griffon, and using the Level 2 Mage, I would stick with High Magic, instead of the other 8 Lores. Having a Silver Wand will get you 4 spells (including Drain Power), and will probably get you the most for your points.

For your BSB, I would invest 8 points for a Great Weapon. Give him the Guardian Phoenix for a 5+ Ward Save, and you won't need the Shield anymore.

On your Elite choices, I've found that Sword Masters are pretty effective without a Full Command. Unless you plan to take a Magic Banner or getting some special magic item, a Full Command isn't really necessary. Same goes for the Ellyrian Reavers. A Harbinger isn't worth taking at all, IMHO.

And speaking of Magical Banners, a Banner of Sorcery is totally worth taking if you have an Archmage in your list. If all you're taking is a single Level 2 Mage though, then it wouldn't be as necessary.

Good luck!

I think this might be a lot to take in, i suggest sticking to the original plan for now(a 1000pts army). The best way to make an army you like and that works is to start somewhere and then play yourself upwards, when you have a good list you can post it again. Good luck

Nice one guys, lots of options to consider. I've now got a much better idea of the relevant options I'll need to consider.

So unit size with units is pretty much proportional to overall army size from what I can gather. I reckon 36 Spearmen will be fine for 1000pts but I'll def consider increasing that as I build up the overall army size.

I only want to run one Mage for now but I would appreciate any advice on what to select as a cheaper army general for smaller games. I have bought the plastic lord box with the one on foot being my BSB I'm left with one on a horse and I also have the metal mini with the shield and sword.

Depenends what other units you have, but one cant go far wrong with a lev2 mage w/ extra spell item and a cheap BSB with some protective item and a GW. Good luck

The sea guard are both archers and spearmen. they also come in island of blood. In a tournament setting they are much better, since versatility goes a long way.

HE cannot hope to take on spearmen vs WOC, but if you volley fire down on them then charge with sword masters and greatweapons, you have a much better chance.

also, dividing units up is smarter than having one big chunk. when you get hit with a test spell or blast template on one huge spearmen unit, you will cry.

one more thing is that you have very strong special characters, and if someone doesnt punch you in the face first, they are devastating against everything

That's what I figured with Seaguard, they are versatile because of the bows.

I'll try out some of the wargear tips and unit sizing and see how I get on.

At least I've got some workable options to compare that'll hopefully save me some greif.

I was thinking of running a lord on a horse with the Dragon Princes of Caledor. Any useful tips guys?

Thanks

Dragon princes are expensive but good. its always a good idea to have calvalry in fantasy, especially with the new rules making calv and auto include

Skavenknight wrote:
HE cannot hope to take on spearmen vs WOC, but if you volley fire down on them then charge with sword masters and greatweapons, you have a much better chance.

I disagree. Sheer quantity from a block of Spearmen will take these guys down, and with the right Lore and spells cast, quite possibly on the turn that they charge WOC.

Skavenknight wrote:
also, dividing units up is smarter than having one big chunk. when you get hit with a test spell or blast template on one huge spearmen unit, you will cry.

I would say that this is true for some armies, but not for HE. Spearmen and Sea Guard have an ability called "Martial Prowess", which always allows them to fight with an additional rank at all times. Therefore, if you're charging, you get 3 ranks that attack (or 4 when they're in a Horde) and 4 ranks when not charging (or 5 when in a Horde). Blast templates are likely to target bigger blocks of units, but that also means your Elite, Lord, and Hero choices are being ignored by it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skavenknight wrote:Dragon princes are expensive but good. its always a good idea to have calvalry in fantasy, especially with the new rules making calv and auto include

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Calvary are absolutely necessary, but having units that can move beyond 6" in a single move action could make the game easier, provided you have the right supporting units.

Dragon Princes, as you'd have guessed, are the best and most expensive Cavalry choice that the HE have. That said, I would be mindful of how you outfit them, in terms of Full Command. Usually, a musician is enough. And if you have a Lord/Hero on a horse with the group, then it's all the more reason to stay away from having the Drake Master.

Everything you just said is circumstantial. youre saying with the right combination, but they can also have the right combination.

the fact that you can fight in more ranks is cool but having more units is better for a combat-intensive army who needs to get to each fight before they can get hurt.

also, calvalry have rules which greatly improve your army as both a theme and for manueverability, plus they come in iob, so where is the downside to taking them?

By using LoM aganst WoC you can do a ridiculous amount of damage because of the evil armor save