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Hi guys. Been browsing the forums, and would just like to say.
What a great bunch you all seem.

Ok so, im a complete nooby to warhammer and tabletop games, though I recently bought a Battle for Black Reach Starter set. Loved it, so then bought a Space Marine Battleforcea drop pod and an additional Rhino.

So the models that I currently have are:

(By the way, im not sure if you say "Combat" to mean 5, but that is my current understanding, so this is what I will say. Please correct me if I am wrong.)

2x Rhino

1x Drop Pod

1x Dreadnought (From Battle for Black reach set)

1x Terminator Combat Squad (From Battle for Black reach set)

1x Captain (From Battle for Black reach set)

1x Scouts Combat Squad

1x Assault Combat squad

31x Tactical Marines

-------------------------------

I only play against my friend who has Tyranids, and currently has:
- Gaunts
-Hormagaunts
-Termagaunts
-Hive Tyrant
-Carnifex
-Trygon Prime
- Warriors
- Genestealers
- Gargoyles
- Rippers

and thats all that i can remember.

We have decieded to play with max of 1500 point armies. Problem is, with my current units, i just get slaughtered as soon as we enter CQC. His monstrous creatures are just too much to handle, once I am locked into CQC with either them or other units.

We have also said that we can play proxy units in order to find whats best, and what next to buy.

So my question is...

Could someone please advise me on a good 1500 point army list. Including proxy units, so that I can get a feel for new units.

And also, what upgrades would be useful for certain units.

It would be absolutely brilliant if you guys could help me out with this. I really want OWN him lol.

Thanks in advance,
Daniel.

Welcome to Dakka/the Hobby Daniel

I apologize ahead of time, but I do not have the SM codex in front of me so I cannot provide a list for you straight out. I can however, hopefully, provide some food for thought for units you may want to consider. It looks like you're having difficulty with your friend's monstrous creatures. They are designed to eat marines and do that very well once they make it into close combat. There are some units you can add that would even the playing field a bit though. Units such as thunderhammer/storm shield terminators, ironclads, devastators and stjernguard come to mind. Upgrades you will want to consider too would be to add meltaguns and powerfists to your tactical marines. Here's my mentality:

TH/SS Terminators: Are arguably one of the best assault units in the game. They're highly survivable and hit very hard. But, they would need a ride to deliver them to a target (ie land raider). Otherwise they would have to run and do nothing all game. An expensive option, but something to consider.

Ironclad: The additional armor makes this dreadnaught pretty beefy in CC. 3 str 10 attacks base (with the DCCW) can put some hurt on bigger creatures and equiping it with dual heavy flamers will roast gaunts/genestealers. Beware the bigger targets though and try not to leave it unsupported. You can also easily proxy it with your generic dreadnaught.

Devastators: Hit those big guys from down range with 4x missile launchers, etc and they should go down as well. They have the dual purpose of anti-horde too by using the frag missile option over the krak. You should have a couple missile launcher marines from the various kits you bought, so it shouldn't be hard to make up/proxy this unit.

Stjernguard: Long story short - poison 2+ bolters. Drop pod them in on turn one and saturate your friend's MC with wounds and it will fall over. It's a potential suicide tactic, but should open up the rest of your army to handle the little stuff. You can also proxy them using your normal tactical marines.

I hope that helps and good luck!

A combat squad is when you take a complete 10 man squad and combat squad it into 2 combat squads. It gives you two independant squads while only takeing up troop slot.

Based on what you have... Its hard to make an effective list, you have the start to a bunch of lists, but you really need to pick a direction. Id start by looking at some other peoples lists on here to get an idea of how you'd like to play then go from there and tailor your models accordingly.

Sorry i couldn't be of more help.

Ok. Thanks for the replies.
Has anyone any useful links to see what directions you can actually take the army, and maybe examples of this.

And could you tell me what units ard worth getting that can be useful agaijst all enemies, not just nids.

danbt wrote:Ok. Thanks for the replies.
Has anyone any useful links to see what directions you can actually take the army, and maybe examples of this.

And could you tell me what units ard worth getting that can be useful agaijst all enemies, not just nids.

Some links, IMO the stuff on dakka is very good.

Gunline;
[url]
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/unit_choices_for_a_Space_marine_gunline[/url]
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactics_for_a_Space_Marine_Gunline_by_Grey_Templar

Drop pods;
http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-finished-tacticas/145762-5th-edition-drop-pod-tactica-update.html

Various;
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Space_Marine_Tactica_%28Age_of_Egos%29

The age of egos link gives an analysis of the units in the SM codex.

C:SM offers many directions, the links above tell about drop pod lists and gunlines. These are only a few variations, other include;
- Mech (most common)
- Shrike + fleeting terminators
- Bikers
- Combinations of the above

This is before taking into account other SM codexes, for example, you could run an all terminator army with DA or SW, assault marines dropping from the sky with BA or run a horde of marines on foot with BT.

Checking out the army list forum will give you a very good idea of what is included in most lists.

Hope this helps.

Edit: oh, I might just mention that the age of egos analysis was written close to when C:SM was released, a lot of tactics have changed but it still stands a decent overview.

Well, with the models you currently have, it would be difficult to make a truly competitive 1500pt list without spending 250+ dollars on new models.

That being said, you can start working toward a decent list using the models you currently have and buying some new stuff.

danbt wrote:
(By the way, im not sure if you say "Combat" to mean 5, but that is my current understanding, so this is what I will say. Please correct me if I am wrong.)

2x Rhino Good here. A requirement to have for SM forces. Keep them simple and cheap

1x Drop Pod Useful in multiples of 1, 3, 5 ect,. This is a start.

1x Dreadnought (From Battle for Black reach set) Can be useful, but it needs its storm bolter to be replaced by a heavy flamer. This will be riding in the drop pod. Find a way to make him a heavy flamer (be creative)

1x Terminator Combat Squad (From Battle for Black reach set) Garbage in its current form. I bought the thunderhammer/storm shield upgrade kit from the GW website and made these into assault terminators. I suggest you do the same)

1x Captain (From Battle for Black reach set) A regular captain is not worth taking. You can use this as a counts-as Captain sicurus or Vulkan. I suggest letting your friends play him as Vulkan he'stan until you can acquire the real vulkan model.

1x Scouts Combat Squad don't bother with these

1x Assault Combat squad don't bother with these either

31x Tactical Marines At 1500 pts you will need 2-3x 10 squads of tactical marines, so these are required

You can work toward something like this:

Vulkan- 190pts
5x TH/SS Terminators, Land Raider Redeemer MM extra armor- 465pts
Dreadnought MM/HF, drop pod- 150pts
10x Tactical marines,Missile launcher melta, combi-melta, rhino with hunter killer- 230pts
10x Tactical marines, Missile Launcher flamer, combi-flamer,rhino with hunter killer- 225pts
Land Speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land Speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Thunderfire cannon- 100pts


You would need to aquire Vulkan, a land raider redeemer, TH/SS conversion kit, two land speeders, and a thunderfire cannon. The marines will combat squad with the 2 special weapons in rhinos, while the missile launchers sit in a bolstered ruin with the Thunderfire cannon (techmarine gunner has bolster defenses). Send your TH/SS termies to kill his MCs. Speeders to put wounds on MCs or take out hordes. Dreadnought can drop on an objective and flame/assault nid hordes.

This may cost you 200-250 bucks, but once you have it you will tear nids up. This is also an all-comers list.

I'm not a SM player so I'd take my advice with a pinch of salt. You could give this a try, uses all your models, only a handful of proxies and comes in at exactly 1500pts.

Librarian (140pts) [Use your Captain as a proxy.]
- Terminator Armour
- Storm Shield
- Gate of Infinity
- Null Zone

Chaplain (130pts) [Use a Tactical Marine as a proxy.]
- Jump Pack
- Combi-Flamer

Terminator Squad (200pts)

Dreadnought (115pts)
- Multi-melta
- Dreadnought CCW
- Heavy Flamer

Tactical Squad (195pts)
- 5 additional Space Marines
- Meltagun
- Lascannon
- Sergeant has Combi-Melta

Tactical Squad (195pts)
- 5 additional Space Marines
- Meltagun
- Lascannon
- Sergeant has Combi-Melta

Scout Squad (90pts) [Pretend they have Sniper Rifles!]
- Sniper Rifles
- Camo Cloaks

Scout Squad (90pts) [Another 5 Tactical Marines as proxy.]
- Sniper Rifles
- Camo Cloaks

Drop Pod (35pts)

Rhino (35pts)

Rhino (35pts)

Assault Squad (240pts) [Another 5 Tactical Marines as proxy.]
- 5 additional Space Marines
- 2 x Flamers
- Sergeant has Power Fist and Combat Shield



Librarian goes with the Terminators, Chaplain with the Assault Squad.

The Tactical Squads go in the Rhinos.

The Dreadnought in the drop pod.

Deep Strike the Dreadnought, the Terminators and the Assault Squad.

Scouts can sit on objectives and go to ground.

Not exactly the most competitive list ever built but I'm sure you'll be able to win with it!

I guess the question we should ask you, Daniel, would be do you have a preferred fighting style? Some people like up close and personal armies, others are gunlines and many are in between hybrids. I personally like to work my armies to be most threatening within 24 inches, so we're talking assault cannons/flamers/meltas/close combat specialists/etc. I have played a Salamanders list (Vulkan He'stan) that was mentioned earlier and it is a very fun army to play, just expect to be up in your opponents face the entire time. Each of the above mentioned units have their place in a number of lists and can handle more than just your friends bugs. Let us know and we'll do what we can to help.

I cant tell you guys how glad i am to have your knowledge on open tap like this.

right. my style.

I would much prefer to be able to set up a gunline and then use cqc to finish them off. but predominantly use shooting. as especially against nids, that is needed.

i want more an more models lol. but paintting takes toooo long lol.

Dan

danbt wrote:I cant tell you guys how glad i am to have your knowledge on open tap like this.

right. my style.

I would much prefer to be able to set up a gunline and then use cqc to finish them off. but predominantly use shooting. as especially against nids, that is needed.

i want more an more models lol. but paintting takes toooo long lol.

Dan

Well that being said I would suggest checking out gunline marine lists on the dakka forums (wizard12 had some good ones). Units to focus on would be devestators, predators, razorbacks, vindicators for your long range and then TH/SS termies or dreadnaughts for your cc. Look at the special characters in the codex as well. There are many options available and one of them may provide a buff that you may wish to pursue (ie Lysander with bolter drill, etc).

(This turned out way longer then I'd have liked, but I hope you find it useful)

The main thing that will define a Space Marine list is its commander. The changing combat tactics or other boons they bestow will determine what kind of list you make. With that in mind, the first thing you need to do is pick a commander. There's a few that work very well for shooty space marines, you've got...
- Lysander
- Kantor
- Sicarius
- Vulkan (although he's more about close range shooting)
Now if you're looking for pure efficiency then Vulkan will be the most effective. He's hands down got the best chapter tactics in the entire codex. Kantor and Lysander do largely the same thing, but Kantor encourages the use of sternguard where Lysander needs a Land Raider + Termies to ride around with. Sicarius is nifty because you keep combat tactics AND get leadership 10 whilst he lives. Start there, this will define the ultimate shape your list takes.

The other thing you will need (and looks like you already have) are 3 tacticool squads. The general rule of thumb is that you want 1 troop choice for every ~500 points. If you need points for other things you can get away with 2 but you have got to be careful. You need troops to win objective missions, and if they all die the best you can do is a tie. You could take a unit of scouts if you're strapped for points but if you're looking for a gunline I would stick to tacs. Sniper scouts just don't perform as well.

Always take the special and heavy weapon, but never the heavy bolter. The missile is good for its cost (nothing!) as is the Multi-Melta, but that usually only sees play in Vulkan lists. The plasma cannon is usually avoided but can be effective if spammed, and the lascannon while good is often exchanged for the missile launcher to save points. As for special weapons, the flamer is a worthy choice but it's usually worth paying for the meltagun (ESPECIALLY if you take Vulkan).

-Side note on plasma: it's very efficient vs big tyranid bugs but doesn't perform nearly as well vs much else. If you're concerned with beating your friend...then take plasma but otherwise stick to more general chocies.

Tactical Marines NEED rides, and they should always be rhinos. Drop pods can work if you spam them but that doesn't sound like what you want. While razorbacks look appetizing, you can't cram all 10 dudes in there if you end up playing kill points. Taking 5 man marines squads is pointless because you lose all special/heavy weapon options. Take rhinos, combat squad, put the sarge + special weapon in the rhino and leave 4 marines + heavy weapon in the back to blast away with.

Speaking of the sarge, 2 options are worth considering: the combi-weapon and the power fist. Fists make your tac squads a little bit better vs walkers and monstrous creatures (IE your tyranid pal) but you might drop them if you need points elsewhere. The combi-weapon gives you an extra 1-shot special weapon, so take the same as your special weapon for that extra melta/flamer/plasma shot.

That should take up around 900 points. From there you'll need a squad for your commander to ride with and something for him to ride in. Regular land raiders are great for this, with 2xTL Lascannons and the ability to plop some termies in there with him. If you're taking terminators, always go with the assault variant. Just buy the box, it comes with 5 lighting claw arms and 5 TH/SS arms. Just convert your regular termies and make all 10.

Other then that, sternguard are good shooting options (especially with Kantor). Dreads can also work well with 2xTL Autocannons, and they're dirt cheap. Auto-las preds make for good firesupport as well, as can 3 thunderfire cannons. You've got lots of options, so my best advice is write up a list you think you'll like and let us make some suggestions from there.

Good luck! Hope this was helpful....and not too long-winded *phew*

Thanks again for the number of excellent replies. Its really helping.

Right so my turn to try and come up with a list for you guys to find holes in:

Though I am only going to make lists for armies that I can proxy with the models I have, please make changes to show what I would need in addition to get it to your advised spec.

List 1 - Against Tyranid Army

- HQ (175)
-- Pedro Kantor
-- Honor guard Squad needed?
- Troops (625)
-- Tactical Squad 1
--- Flamer,Plasma Cannon (Sgt. Combi Melta, Power fist)
-- Tactical Squad 2
--- Flamer, Plasma Cannon (Sgt. Combi Melta, Power fist)
-- Tactical Squad 3
--- Flamer, Missile Launcher (Sgt. Combi Plasma, Power fist)
- Dedicated Transport (115)
-- 1x Rhino (Who goes in this?)
-- 1x Drop Pod (For Sternguard) (Locator beacon for termies deepstrike)
- Elites (545 +)
-- Terminator Assault Squad TH/SS
-- Sternguard?
-- Dreadnought (TL ACan, TL LasCan)
- Fast Attack
--
- Heavy Suport (250)
-- 1x Landraider

Comes to 1710 which is over my 1500.

Can anyone see where I may be going wrong?

Thanks
Dan

Any ideas regarding my army list?

Thanks

Hi, im also noob and rookie in 40k, so...

if you want use pedro and stern, i think 2 tac troops + stern are enought for 1500p army, you can save points from 3rd tac unit for something else, dont take honour guards for pedro, pedro goes with stern. Here is my list, maybe it will help a little:

HQ

Pedro Kantor 175pts

TROOPS

1x Tac squad 205pts
10men, ML, Flamer, Serg. BP, Bolter
Rhino as DT

1x Tac squad 205pts
10men, ML, Flamer, Serg. BP, combi-flamer
Rhino as DT

ELITE

1x close combat terminator squad 450pts
5x TH/SS
LR as DT

1x Sternguard veterans 330pts
9men, 2x MM, 3x combi-flamer, 3x combi-melta, Serg. PF, combi-melta
Rhino as DT here goes Pedro

1x Dreadnought 125pts
2x TL AC

1500pts

Better is of course rise your army into 1750pts, and take some typhoon speeders( 2 or maybe 3 will be good), or go into 2000pts army, when you can take another stern unit, very good unit with pedro special rule made scoring them, second HQ MoTF or Chaplain are good, MoTF with his dread spawn, chaplain in DTA and termies is very good too.

Udunai hit the nail on the head, if you go with Pedro you only need 2 tac squads. The sternguard function as a super-tac squad and replace the 3rd.

The thing about Pedro is in order to fully utilize his chapter tactics, you need to bring 2+ squads of sternies, which limits the use of terminators and dreadnoughts. Never bring his honour guard squad, I know it's fluffy but the lack of an invul save puts them so far behind terminators it isn't funny.

Don't mix and match combi-weapons to your tac squads, its generally a bad idea. It's so you have insurance when you absolutely need to get the job done, not a "just in case" measure.

How's about something like this...

Pedro -- 175

Tac Squad - Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino -- 255
Tac Squad - Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino -- 255

10 Sternguard - 2 Lascannons, 5 Combi-Meltas, Power Fist, Rhino -- 365
5 TH/SS Termies -- 200

Land Raider -- 250

This is 1500 points. It has lots of toys to fill up the last 60 points I had, so if you wanted to add something or need points when you upsize it you have lots of options. It does however put 6 lascannon shots down-range

The reason everything has power fists is because it stacks well with Kantor's aura. I'll be honest, I've killed more IC's with squad sarges than Pedro, 4 attacks on the charge makes for 2 str 8 PW wounds, and it's not too bad vs MC's or walkers either. On that note, never get Pedro out of the land raider. He's probably the worst of the SC's in the book in CC, so just keep him in the land raider projecting his bubble of +1 attack. He`s just to vulnerable to hidden power fists. Plus this way you can keep him in the middle so everyone gets to vote for Pedro.

You also have the ability to go offensively and defensively. If you roll objectives, combat squad down and plunk the lascannons on a home objective. Then the other combat squad can take the rhino and go support the termies. If you roll kill-points, hide your full squads in your rhinos and plink away with 6 lascannon shots a turn, or move out and forget about combat squading if you think you'll get shot to pieces. Slam them with terminators, target soft transports and hope for the best.

right, thanks again. This is really helping.

One thing though, are the units inside the vehicle allowed to shoot from the vehicle even tho there is only 1 fire point in a rhino and none in land raider. So how would i get 6 lascannoon shots in one turn from inside the vehicle?

Also would this list be good against Nids?

Pedro -- 175

Tac Squad - Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino -- 255
Tac Squad - Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino -- 255

10 Sternguard - 2 Lascannons, 5 Combi-Meltas, Power Fist, Rhino -- 365
5 TH/SS Termies -- 200

Land Raider -- 250

Thanks

Nids are almost CC army, so you will need some flamers with thier templates, take maybe LR reedemer instead of classic LR. LCs and meltas are good weapons against heavy armored vehicles and MC, so first think how many of these weapons are enought depends on enemy army. Nids are cheap in points so on 1500pts you meet large number of them, so templates weapons are good. Your Tac squads are too expensive in points I think, also stern are expensive, maybe change lascannon for heavy flamers and give the rest of stern also combi weapons. My list has 1 rifle dread instead of 1 your stern, i think dread is more valuable and his TL AC support your combat squads well.

If you want to tailor the list to beat nids then drop the lascannons down to plasma cannons, and upgrade the meltaguns t plasma guns. The sternies all get combi-plas instead.

I highly advise against doing this. Sure your list will be super effective against nids, not so much against just about everything else. That list can and will work against nids just not as crazy well as if you custom made it.

Don't worry about flamers, you have bolters for that. HF sternguard are awesome but lack the flexibility that Kantor demands they have.

As for shooting out the rhino, the vanilla codex states you may shoot 2 models out the top hatch. So yes, you can pop out and shoot 1/both of your lascannons. The raider has no fire points and therefore cannot be shot out of...but assault termies dont have guns anyway so its not an issue.

Aha Ok. So keep Kantor in the LR as a seperate unit and keep getting the assault termies in and out, moving where appropriate.

One thing, this is the Tyranid army I will be up against:

HQ
Hive Tyrant with Armored Shell, Heavy Venom Cannon and Regeneration - 255 pts

Elites
1 Hive Guard - 50 pts
1 Pyrovore - 45 pts

Troops

3 Warriors - 90 pts
8 Genestealers - 112 pts
16 Termagaunts with Devourers - 160 pts
16 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacks - 128 pts

Fast Attack
3 Raverners with Deathspitters - 120 pts
10 Gargoyles with Toxin Sacks 70 pts

Heavy Attack
1 Carnifex with Stranglethorn Cannon and Regeneration 205 pts
1 Trygon with Prime Upgrade and Regeneration 265 pts

Total 1500 pts

So I hope I can cope well.
Any comments on useful tactics would be great
Thanks again.

focus fire down the trygon when it pops up / target it if it starts running. Don't let the genesneakers get into CC with anything but the hammernators. Watch out for the gargoyles, and if you want you can focus on synapse elimination. 3 warriors + a hive tyrant isnt too hard to eliminate and should cause him some headaches with the smaller bugs.