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recently ive run into 2 problems while playing against someone whom has taken the game to new hights of nuttyness and i wanted to get some feedback on what the dakkites think.
problem numberr one. does a cannon use a template? is the line that the cannon ball travels along after it bounces considered a template? my own interpritationis that the game uses only 3 templates and that the cannon line is not. so please just dont correct me if im wrong, explain to me why it is considered one.
problem 2.
supporting attacks. ive looked at the rule and if your war litter is on a 20 / 20 mm base do models in the 3rd rank get supporting attacks directly behind the war liter? or even behind a plague furnace? its a tricky question. id say no but again the rules laywers here state it is as yes and people are starting to adopt it as given.

as always thanks for the imput

Pg. 48 of the rulebook covers supporting attacks.

It looks to me as though models directly behind a plague furnace would be able to make a supporting attack. The wording never refers to rank, but rather it says "a model can make a supporting attack if the model is directly behind a friendly model that is itself fighting an enemy in base contact". The model in the "third rank" is behind only one model, the Furnace, and that furnace is fighting in base contact. I would say yes, they could make a supporting attack.

As for the question about templates and cannons, I think there is more to your question than you put into words. What exactly is the issue with the Cannon being a template or not being a template?

Off hand- the cannon ball travels in a straight line, it doesnt use a template. Its the same for spells- some use templates, others don't. If you need to, show your annoying friend the 3 templates the game uses, then ask him which one the cannon ball uses according to the rules.

Cannons follow a lot of the same rules as templates (ie not rolling to hit, look out sir, d6 hits in a building). They arent actually templates though. I agree with Lehnsherr that you would have to tell us what the situation is.

The plague furnace states that it takes up space as though it were a certain # of models, replacing them. In a sense this means that the furnace is both the fist model (the one in base to base) and the second model (the supporting one) thus those models behind it cannot support. If you check the rules on large based models joining units you will find they state the same thing, that the footprint of the model means it takes up and replaces a certain # of models.
Ill admit that rules wise this is shaky (I dont have the book on me so its the best I can do), but given the size of a furnace or a bell or a juggernaught it makes sense that someone couldnt make a supporting attack around it, they would be stuck trying to find a way through, which would only happen when the fighters on either side of the beast or contraption had died.

For the cannon and template question, please see pg 113 under Who's Been Hit?
"The bounce of a cannonball is treated exactly like a special kind of template, which we assume to be about the width of the cannonball itself."

Yes, a cannon shot is a template.

Also, on a somewhat related note, a Skaven Warp Lightning Cannon DOES use a template. It's part the Skaven madness. I assume your friend is a Skaven player since youre asking about the Plague Furnace. If he is using a WL Cannon, then it indeed does use the small round template at the point of explosion.

My two coppers...

ok cannon cleared up then and tanks,
Now about supporting attacks: page 48 first paragraph, 'warriors in the second rank do not sit idley by whilst there comrads battle away, but muster forward to strike blows of their own. we refer to the attacks made by these models as supporting attacks'
Unfortunately the person in question (native german speakers) say that the word 'refers' isnt a definate 'is' no matter how i explain it or haul out the dictionary. so he says the first paragraph is vague so he discludes it. the example were actually using is the war liter as i use one in the army,
the disagreement basically goes that because the diagram and the second paragraph are clear (even though the diagram doesnt include a 40, 40 base) and the first paragraph is vauge that he is right and that supporting or hoard attacks can be made fron bedind a screaming bell, plague furnace, etc.
My arguement is that it isnt vague at all, and that that paragraph A combined with paragraph b come out as. in the second rank any friendly model behind a friendly model that is in base contact with an enemy model can make a supporting attack. a war liter displaces 2 models, so can the third rank models attack thru a 40/40 mm based war liter? i dont think it can.

oh and just to clarify, im playing skaven, we were discussing a empire great cannon and the like for the line its self. sorry to be vauge.

The plague furnace states that it takes up space as though it were a certain # of models, replacing them. In a sense this means that the furnace is both the fist model (the one in base to base) and the second model (the supporting one) thus those models behind it cannot support

The key component to me is the wording "a model can make a supporting attack if the model is directly behind a friendly model that is itself fighting an enemy in base contact." The furnace is still only 1 model, and any model behind the furnace would then be able to make a supporting attack according to RAW. It may take the place of other models, but it never changes the fact that it is still only 1 model.

I agree with your interpretation fluff wise, and I am sure that the RAI is to not allow supporting attacks to go through such a model, but with the way the rule is written, I would be hesitant to say it is right from a strictly RAW interpretation.

Large things like the plague furnace displace models. If it displaces models past the ranks that can normally attack (2 standard, 3 if horde and so on), those models don't get their attacks. It still goes by ranks for something like this. Think of the skinks when there are kroxigors in the unit. Skinks can't attack past a kroxigor, just like plague monks can't attack past a furnace. It's easy to hit past your buddy, but drop something big that won't step to the side to let you hit, and you can't reach.

Scarecrow - except that doesnt follow in the rules, as has been pointed out.

Are you in btb with a friendly model that is in btb with an enemy? THen you get to make supporting attacks. There is no requirement for you to be in the second rank, however if you ARE in the second rank you will get to make supporting attacks, as that is part of the definition.

then why is it stated in the first paragraph that models in the second rank may make supporting attacks nos? it specifically declares second rank (or 3rd rank for hoard) is this paragraph ignored for some reason?

I am not ignoring it, but adding to it. The first sentence only outlines A way you can make supporting attacks - the "base case"

The *usual* way you get to make supporting attacks is to be in the second rank. Another way is to be in the 3rd rank for Horde, or up to 4th rank for horde spears (and 5th for elves). And another way is to be in btb with a friendly model in btb with an enemy, which usually means you are in the second rank, but does not REQUIRE you to be in the second rank.

You are treating the first line as a requirement that all models must achieve in order to make supporting attacks, when this is patently false (otherwise Hordes would not work, for example)

ok i see what your getting at now. and thanks.

A second point, I believe, is that different sized models in units count as X many of the smaller models for purpose of rank bonus. I'm not sure if this is true through errata and faq right now, but that's what I've got.

It is kind of lame that a guy in the 6th or 7th rank gets to make a supporting attack, but I suppose, being skaven, they could be scrambling over and under the bell or furnace to take a stab at the enemy (that being said, I think that clanrats at least would be content to sit in back and not die).
I wouldn't mind not taking the extra 2-3 attacks, since it is rather silly. But rules is rules, I suppose.