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So my local BA player decided to get a grip of himself and give his original army, CSM, another go. This lead to him turning up with a list that I seemingly can't beat. From memory, it's something like (1750 points):

Nurgle DP, wings, warptime
Khârn, 5 Zerkers with PW, rhino, EA, smoke
5 plague marines, dual melta, rhino, EA, smoke
10x CSM, melta, lascannon, Greater Chaos Glory
10x CSM, melta, lascannon
Defiler, reaper AC
Defiler, reaper AC
3x Obliterators
3x termies, 3x combi-melta, 1 chainfist

He runs Khârn and friends down one half of the table and runs the DP down the other, follows with the plague marines and basicly sits back and points the rest at me. I just can't seem to get enough anti-tank to stop him (or maybe it's the fact that I can't hit with melta weapons at all...).

My list is:

Emperor's Champion - AAC, NTMO
Assault Termies, furious charge, 4x LC, 1x TH/SS
LRC, smoke (termies ride here)
6x marines, melta, fist
razorback, TLLC, smoke, armour (above squad goes here)
vindicator, PotMS, smoke
vindicator, PotMS, smoke
dreadnought, TLLC, ML, venerable, tank hunter
lasplas squad
MM/HF speeder
MM/HF speeder
7x marines, 1 neophyte, melta, fist
drop pod (above squad and champion goes here)

My idea is basically to ram the vindicators, the LRC and the drop pod down the opponent's throat, forcing them to make tough calls. The issue versus the above CSM list, though, is that his defilers are nasty as gak in CC, essentially neutering my strategy. What to do? Is there any specific BT unit or strat that would help me?

I would suggest taking another land raider. I used to play Black Templars back in 4th Edition but now their codex is so old I really don't have much respect for them.

However, if you want to continue to play them and try and beat your opponent use another Land Raider. Also take a full squad of 10 termies and put two full squads of Initiates with Power Fist and Melta guns in the raiders. Next for heavy support I would take a lascannon predator and also use a High Marshal and put them in the Termy squad. Finally have your Emperors champion travel near the Terminator squad to provide support.

Final piece of advice-Stop Playing Black Templars until they get a new codex. I went with Blood Angels since they are most like Black Templars in terms of CC style and currently they are 100x's better.

C'mon! No one wants to hear "stop playing your codex"!
That just makes me mad...

Sadly, with my non-existant BT experience I can't really help you much. The only thing I can say is that the speeders should be key. The can block off a rhino or flat out first turn to melta the Defilers, they don't like meltas much. The Kharn squad pretty much have to be shoot down, termies aswell as the podders can handle the others in combat, but kharn is a nasty guy...

The most you can have in a Crusader is 16 models, not 20, Sanguinis.

Were you going to take an Annihilator or Destructor? It's more points but I prefer to take my TL Las Preds in combat, especially taking into account his Oblits, Defilers, etc. Lots of things you could outright wipe off the map, most of which you'll need to bust down anyway.

Not a whole lot of troops so I'm hoping you'll be in killpoints game, but wiping him is an auto win any way.

MasticatorDeelux wrote:
Were you going to take an Annihilator or Destructor? It's more points but I prefer to take my TL Las Preds in combat, especially taking into account his Oblits, Defilers, etc. Lots of things you could outright wipe off the map, most of which you'll need to bust down anyway.

Not a whole lot of troops so I'm hoping you'll be in killpoints game, but wiping him is an auto win any way.

My experience with preadators is that they stand still, don't get to shoot all their weapons because sponsons get blocked and then either die horribly or become neutered when they have to run away. That's why I've gone for the dreadnought. While it more expensive and has one less shot, it gets what is effectively an S10 lascannon and an S9 missile launcher versus vehicles, can move away while firing, and can actually defend itself is CC.

As for the troops, I'd love to find useful ways to get more troops into my list, but they really can't stand up to much out there anymore. I'm actually suspecting that part of the problem with this particular CSM list is my ability to constantly roll less than average (no, really, we usually joke that I'd be smoked if I didn't get to reroll dice in a game, as I play HE in WHFB, who also gets rerolls in CC). This tendency usually strikes at the worst possible moment, such as when my speeders get into melta range of his defilers. "What's that, rolled a 1? No way!" is getting annoying (and I realize that "this happens to everyone", but I'm really the local screwup when it comes to shooting stuff).

Fair enough--I was just trying to maximize the high Str shots you have against everything out there. It'd probably never make it so see termies as the highest priority target for them, but the probability exists.

Honestly I think your list should be able to do it, especially given two MM speeders and the TLLC Tank Hunter Dread to suppress Defilers and pop transports.

Tactically, I think you may need to focus more on popping the transports and wounding the prince early, and wait to shoot or counter-assault the defilers until they get close to you.

The fact that your terminators have only one TH is a bit of an issue- if they had two or three, between them and the Venerable Dread you should be able to smash the Prince & Defilers pretty reliably in close combat once they get close to you. The other option that Black Templars have which no one else has anymore, is to take a squad of 5 tac termies with two assault cannons and tank hunter. This is extremely deadly against transports and defilers, and can lay some wounds on a Prince pretty easily, then put the last wound or two on the prince when he gets close. Even with Warp Time he only averages 2.9 dead terminators after saves, on the charge, which gives you a decent shot of finishing him off.

Vindicators should be a backup option for transport popping, but primarily focus on the oblits.

As Oscarius mentioned, one additional powerful use for Speeders is to zip and and move directly in front of a Rhino to block it going foward and make it move around. You can really slow down an opponent for a turn this way; even more if you use two in a "V" type formation and force him to go backwards and THEN around. It's a big investment as one or both of the speeders may well die (although Skimmer Dodge from ramming & SMF cover save improve your odds), but it can be a lifesaver in some situations.

Remember you can also screen your Crusader for a turn or two with infantry and other units around it, to reduce the threat of the termicide. That depends on the situation, though.

Oscarius said: C'mon! No one wants to hear "stop playing your codex"!
That just makes me mad...

I don't normally say stop playing a codex. However, the BT Codex is the Codex I have seen the most on YMDC forum for question. Also, they had a rule that was specifically tailored to 4th Edition. That is why I said stop playing them.

MasticatorDeelux said:The most you can have in a Crusader is 16 models, not 20, Sanguinis.

I never said 20 I meant a full squad as in 10 or you could take 16 but I was never a fan of Neophytes.

Personally I would go with what Mannahnin said. I think your 2 Speeders are good especially with MM. I have a fondness for speeders since people have to deal with them at some point even though most people would like to leave them alone.

The only thing is I'm not a fan of the old TH/SS Termies. I think you get more bang for your buck with just normal Termies with PF. I used to run a 4th Edition army of BT's back in the day and I had a whole squad of 10 regular Termies and I used to wipe the field with them. Give it a try!

Mannahnin wrote:The fact that your terminators have only one TH is a bit of an issue- if they had two or three, between them and the Venerable Dread you should be able to smash the Prince & Defilers pretty reliably in close combat once they get close to you. The other option that Black Templars have which no one else has anymore, is to take a squad of 5 tac termies with two assault cannons and tank hunter. This is extremely deadly against transports and defilers, and can lay some wounds on a Prince pretty easily, then put the last wound or two on the prince when he gets close. Even with Warp Time he only averages 2.9 dead terminators after saves, on the charge, which gives you a decent shot of finishing him off.

You'll have to remember, though, that my terminators have furious charge, and thus get 4 S5I5 LC attacks each when charging. In my experience, that has been more than enough to wipe out the DP. The problem is that Khârn hits my lines soon after, and he really does smash faces in. Regarding the tank hunter terminators, I've never liked footslogging terminators, and tank hunter dual assault cannon terminators clock in at around 250 points, which means I have to drop my LRC. Then I might as well drop the assault termies, as they don't get anywhere without a ride. This will lead to the rest of my armour becoming that much more vulnerable, as the anti-tank fire that went into the LRC now will go into the far squishier targets.

Regarding the 10 terminator idea: 470 points on a unit which is more or less a meat shield for 2 assault cannons? Feels a tad expensive in my opinion, even if it is a hard-as-nails meatshield...

FC is great, but LCs just can't do the job against Defilers. The THs give you the ability to take on either target. Up to you, of course. Your dread and antitank guns may do the job on the Defilers fine.

If you went AC/TH tac termies, you might not even need the Crusader. You could get more speeders, more termies, or another scoring unit in a razorback for those points.

If Kharn batting cleanup is the problem, I'd try out the Speeder transport-blocking tactic mentioned earlier.

Two Defilers are hard to control with the range, but I have found giving too many juicy targets works enough -

EC in 9 man Crusader squad - Rhino
5 man Crusader squad in Razorback w/ TLLC
Chaplain w/ x10 Crusaders + x7 Neos + 2 Cenobyte servitors


5 man Assault Termies in LC w/ FC
5 man Assault Termies in LC w/ FC

Tank hunter Venerable Dread w/ TLLC and missile launcher

LCs rush all out while Mob runs and spreads out as best against incoming Defilers. Razorback and Tank Hunter Dread try to take out Defilers. LCs hit HQs while EC and 9man squad backup the fight against whoever needs it the most.