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I am a Vanilla Marine player. I have been playing for a little while now, and I was just wanting to start hitting some tourneys. The question is this. Do I have a chance as a Vanillia Marine player, or do the puppies and angels just win out. I will probably end up with those codex anyway, eventually. But I was just looking for some advice on Vanilla Marines currently. Point levels from 1000, 1500, 1750, and1850. Where are my strengths and weaknesses compared to the others, and how do I capitalize on those. LikeI said, I am currently a casual player, and really want to get into the tourney scene. Thanks in advance!!

Whats your list mate?

Well, that is part of what I am looking for advice on. I have assault termies, chaplains, some assault marines, 3 tac squads, rhinos/razorbacks, devastators, three dreads, three drop pods, and captain/chaptermaster...like I said. Is there a direction worth going here, or should I start with one of the other variants?

Being a space wolves player go with the pups they are ferocious basterds . Both armies have there ups and downs, Blood angel units are expensive but are highly mobile. Wolfs have great heavy support and middle range support .

GO with pups !!

Vanilla marines are shooty marines, we do our damage at range, incapacitating the enemy before they reach our lines, or bombarding them with massed bolters/bolt pistols before assaulting what is left.

Our strengths come from tactical flexability and a synergy that is present in our codex more than any other marine codex out there. Our weaknesses are low numbers and a lack of dedication at times, but those come with flexability unmatched in any other dex out there.

Our special rules give us the choice of splitting up our 10 man squads into two 5 man, better to cover ground and effectively split fire every shooting phase, while not losing out on points because we just need to buy more. Combat tactics can deny the enemy a game-deciding assault, or pull our marines out of the fray while others fight on! Our special characters give us anything from fleet to stubborn, to twin linked meltas that no other marine codex can boast having.

It is true that blood angels are better in assault, but marines will have better long range shooting. It is true that space wolves are vicious within 24 inches, but our units can work together to bring theirs to their knees! What we lack in specialization we make up for in being able to do SOMETHING better than the other army.

I would say stick with vanilla marines, our more subtle strengths make us the best codex to have when playing with a 3+ army.

Brother Thunder covered it very well. All three codices are excellent. They all work differently, and bring different unique strengths, rules, and units.

Good or great stuff C:SM have that BA and/or SW don't:

Several awesome SCs.
Higher capacity transports.
Sternguard (though BA have them too).
Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, Avenger.
Ironclads.
Cheaper TH & SS terminators.
Thunderfire cannons.
Land Speeder Storms.

Blood angels for the win!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD... um... emperor?

Im sorry and Im gonna say again. C:SM get the short end of the stick. Im not gonna sugarcoat it for you. SW and BA are just more superior, unless ofcourse its a Vulkan army. The rest of the builds are just not on par with SW and BA.

Null Zone all by itself is an argument for C:SM armies in a competitive setting.

Vulkan is great.

Shrike Fleeting armies can be awesome.

Biker armies can be extremely strong.

I'd say there's 3, maybe 4 ways to play C:SM on par with a non-optimized SW or BA list.

1. Vulkan with a Libby (Null Zone/Your choice) - 2 HQ's in a Land Raider with TH/SS Termies, 2-3 squads of tacticals with Melta, MM/HF Speeders, MM Bikes, transport killing support (Dreads or Preds) added to taste.

2. Razorback spam - though C:SM doesn't do it quite as well as SW or BA, if you want to pay for Fast, the ability to run a Null Zone libby or Biker Captain for some bike troops makes a hybrid Razorback/Biker troop list pretty scary.

3. Biker troops - The Captain on a Bike with a Relic Blade, SS, and Hellfire rounds is a beautiful thing. Even more beautiful when you throw in a Melta or Plasma Command Squad and several squads of biker troops, with at least one min sized tactical razorback for scoring, and taking those multi-leveled objectives.

4. Drop Pod Assault - C:SM still does this one best, with our larger capacity drop pods, Ironclad dreads, and great short ranged shooting. SW can play this well too, but the lack of Ironclads really favors the vanilla codex. While most opponents are learning how to better face this army through more strategic deployment, it's still a to face.

Apart from these lists though, there are sadly few "balanced" lists which can stand toe-to-toe with a BA or SW "balanced" list. Variant power armored codicies simply get things cheaper, and so you have to depend on your exclusive units/characters to maintain the advantage.

As much as many players dislike spam, "optimizing lists", and/or special characters, these things are necessary to create an army that is, point for point, better than BA or SW.

Ok, so can I get an idea for and "optimized" 1500pt list that could be built up to larger pt values. No Vulkan please, I would like to stay away from that, and I would also like to stay away from bikes.

The only option left would be pods, as you just rejected the 1st 3 builds.

Ironclad dreads in pods, tac squads in pods, HQ in pods, you get the idea.

C:SM Do alpha shooty pretty well. Not as good as how SW do it tho.

You'd want to do something like:

Librarian
Termie Armor
Storm Shield
Null Zone
Avenger

2x Ironclad
Meltagun
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

10 Sternguard
PF Sergeant
4 Combi-meltas
4 Combi-flamers
Drop Pod

Tactical Squad
Combi-melta
Meltagun
Multi-melta
Drop Pod

Tactical Squad
Combi-melta
Meltagun
Multi-melta
Drop Pod

2x Predator w/ Autocannon/HB Sponsons

A fantastic amount of alpha strike anti-tank, with some long range anti-infantry, and, of course, bolters and AV13 Dreads.

This is actually a pretty easy decision to make. Leave your guys as grey plastic marines and just play all three whenever you like. Worst that can happen is you lose a little on the comp scores but it's worth it for being able to play the best armies all the time. Plus when grey knights come out you'll be rocking and ready to go, 'my guys are already grey, so I'll be using these rules until the next codex comes out'.

I say use Dark Angels.

SumYungGui wrote:This is actually a pretty easy decision to make. Leave your guys as grey plastic marines and just play all three whenever you like. Worst that can happen is you lose a little on the comp scores but it's worth it for being able to play the best armies all the time. Plus when grey knights come out you'll be rocking and ready to go, 'my guys are already grey, so I'll be using these rules until the next codex comes out'.

Ugh. Grey Plastic.

If you want to go this route, just give them a unique color scheme. Then you can say they're a successor to whichever chapter you're using the rules for.

Not to say anything mean about people who don't like painting; everyone has the right to enjoy the hobby in the way they prefer. But IMO they are cheating themselves (and their opponents) of greater enjoyment of the game.

I have been playing C:SM for a couple years now, my first army. I didn't bandwagon hop dispite everyone thinking my paint scheme looks a little like space pups.

Nullzone + terminators, or bikes. Most other strategies BA or Pups do better. If you want to use TH/SS terminators, go with C:SM.

Aside from the strategical stuff, just go with whichever you like to paint best. A good player will do well with any of these codices, so just go with the one you like.

The Green Git wrote:I say use Dark Angels.

The only excuse for running Dark Angels is Deathwing or extreme chapter loyalty. C:SM does everything else better.

There's certainly a playstyle difference between blood angels and vanilla marines, but in general I find that Wolves can do just about everything vanilla marines can do, but better and cheaper. A few builds, like Vulkan or bikers, are best with vanilla, but otherwise, SWs all the way.

Dark Angels do have some neat biker builds with the Ravenwing, but that's about it.

I would argue that Raider Rocks work better without Vulkan. Part of the major challenge with getting Land Raiders from point a to b is making sure they aren't moveblocked, meltavetted, or otherwise delayed. The thing with Vulkan is that his Tactics very much make you want to take MORE MELTAFLAMER RAWR (versus more Dakka Dreads or other support units), and he costs more than 2 dakka preds or 2 Typhoon Speeders. When you add in the cost of the Null Zone Librarian who probably should take precedence anyway...

The main thing with normal Marines is they really can't surivive on foot, and suck in melee outside of their specialists.

This begs the question who is more badass?
a. Tigurius
b. Mephiston
c. Njal Stormcaller

Mephiston. That one was easy. Next!

Yup. But each codex has cost-effective uber-badasses. Mephiston for BA, Lysander and Vulkan for codex, and Logan for SW.

Nullzone + Hammernators will kill a lot of way more expensive deathstars for far fewer points. Space puppies don't even have hammernators (Wolfguard w/ storm shield and hammer rings in around 60+ points).

Keep in mind that you can just get a copy of both the vanilla and wolf codexes and field both of them as the mood suits you. A guy w/ power armor and a bolter can just as easily be a grey hunter as it can be a tactical marine. I flip between both codexes on occasion. The only model I don't really use from the wolf codex is the thunderwolves or thunderwolf calvary. When trying to decide between the two, if it uses termies, go vanilla, if it uses devastators, grab the wolves.

But I should be getting a tau army today and will be taking a little vacation from power armor land.

Vanilla do a few things that BA/SW cannot do:

TH/SS bombs (In LRs or on foot with shrike)

Null zone!

Bike armies

Podding vulkan (or just vulkan in general)

In most other instanced they are outplayed by BA/SW though. I would recommend those codexes unless you are doing something listed above. I wanted to field Raven Guard with the C:SM but I just ended up using the BA codex and painted them as Raven Guard in the end.

Ok, last night, I played a game against my buddy, who plays orks. My list:

Termie Chaplain with Combi Melta

10 Tac Marines, Combi flamer, Flamer, ML, Rhino
10 Tac Marines, Combi Melta, Meltagun, ML, Rhino
5 Scouts, Sarge PF and Combi flamer, ccw/pistol scouts

6 Termies TH/SS, LRC Multi Melta Xtra armor

LSS, Multi Melta

Predator Auto Cannon, Las Sponsons
Predator Auto Cannon, Las Sponsons

His List (Not sure on the upgrades):

War Boss
KFF Mek

Boys and trukk
Boys and trukk
19 Gretchin
8 Unique Nobs and Battle wagon
Burnas and Battle Wagon

5 Lootas
5 Lootas

In this game, I did quite well against him. We were playing pitched battle/capture and control. In the end, I won controlling my objective and contesting his. The list did quite well, and I wasn't podding or using Vulkan or bikes.I had the Chappy running with the Termies. I wonder, How much better is the Librarian than the Chaplain? Is the Chaplain just overkill with the rerolling to hit on the charge?

PS: I am going to invest in all of the Marine Codices! And I have just recently begun the painting part of the hobby, and I quite enjoy it. And I am going with a unique scheme.

Codex:SM is viable. I played it until I started BA (Their tanks were what did it). Lets not forget you have combat tactics, hands down one of the best rules of C:SM. As a BA player, I wish I had something like that. The SM codex is able to do things that the other cant. Play the army you enjoy playing, I guess is what I am trying to say.

While all these codices are great in their own respects, it all really comes down to style preference. I tested all three codices and was successful with them, but I choose wolves for their deadly close range tactics. I also just like the models too. I hope this helped; Bless Russ