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Which would be a better Space Marine fast attack choice?

Land Speeder squadron with Heavy Flamer/Multi Melta

Or

10 man vanguard veteran squad with lightning claws and jump packs?

It all depends on what else you have in your list. Can you tell us what your using so far and what the point limit is?

Depends on what the rest of your list looks like.

So...... where is the rules question??

yeah, def a tactics post.

I vote speeders. 10 man vanguards were never better. Esp for their points, regardless of army composition.

Btw, I sooo thought the OP would read: Attack Bikes or Land Speeders?

Vanguard are really not that great. In a BA list they are good, but not so much in a SM list. They can be good if you get their heroic intervention off, but honestly, you're better off with terminators or a regular, and cheaper assault squad. People drop too many points in to Vanguard.

As for speeders, I love them, but the best load-out in most cases, IMHO, is the Typhoon. The typhoon is amazing, I normally take 3. The HF/MM usually shoots once and dies. The Typhoon will last you all game if played well.

Of course, as others have said, a lot depends on your list.

It's mostly a shooting army that I decided to add vulkan to so I figured I might need more assault units besides thunder hammer termies but then I figured with vulkan having 3 speeders with Multi meltas and heavy Flamers would be atleast annoying to deal with in the back feild killing takes and such.

Thaanos wrote:It all depends on what else you have in your list. Can you tell us what your using so far and what the point limit is?

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Depends on what the rest of your list looks like.

No, it does not. I think it's funny that this is now the go to response when trying to sound insightful. Can we please all agree that in the Space Marines codex, Vangaurd are never better than anything? (Alright, except maybe Honor Guard.)

Riddick40k wrote:It's mostly a shooting army that I decided to add vulkan to so I figured I might need more assault units besides thunder hammer termies but then I figured with vulkan having 3 speeders with Multi meltas and heavy Flamers would be atleast annoying to deal with in the back feild killing takes and such.

It's a no brainer if you've got Vulkan in the list. Most importantly, Heroic Intervetion of a 2d6 isn't nearly reliable enough to be useful. Sure, Vangaurds can take Thunder Hammers, but that's about the only synergy they're going to have with Vulkan. Whats more, for the cost of a Vangaurd Veteran Squad with Jump packs and one measly thunder hammer, (190 points) you can get 2 MM/HF Land Speeders and have points left over. It's four weapons the Vulkan enhances against one. Synergy, synergy, synergy.

I agree that vanguard vets are too expensive...which is why I never use them. Heroic intervention is nice but the one time a game you may get to use it is still not worth it. Speeders are going to give you more bang for your points. I would still go with bikes myself but that's just because I don't like the speeder models.

No we can't agree. It truly does depend on what the rest of his list looks like. I will agree that in a vast majority of cases the landspeeder will be better, especially with the cost of vanguard however there are certain situations that they could prove better.

1.) His list is extremely shooty & he has no assault support. If the enemy get's close and is decent in CC (tons of orks, hormagaunts, banshees / scorpions / Nob Bikers) they could prove useful for a counter assault. Would a heavy flamer speeder also do the job? Yes provided the unit (not just what I mentioned) didn't outflank & get into combat, AND that the speeders are still alive. MM/HF tend to shoot once & die as someone pointed out.

2.) I have seen people run Vanguard vets with storm shields to provide cover to a foot slogging army to decent effect. Decent effect meaning they provided good protection, the footslogging list was still crap.

There are of course other times but I'm not going to go into every hypothetical situation where they could prove more useful than a suicide speeder like the MM/HF. So yes, you're right endova in MOST situations and MOST lists the landspeeder will be better but to say it is outright better in EVERY list & EVERY situation is to ignore the synergy of an army list & therefore wrong.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:No we can't agree. It truly does depend on what the rest of his list looks like. I will agree that in a vast majority of cases the landspeeder will be better, especially with the cost of vanguard however there are certain situations that they could prove better.

1.) His list is extremely shooty & he has no assault support. If the enemy get's close and is decent in CC (tons of orks, hormagaunts, banshees / scorpions / Nob Bikers) they could prove useful for a counter assault. Would a heavy flamer speeder also do the job? Yes provided the unit (not just what I mentioned) didn't outflank & get into combat, AND that the speeders are still alive. MM/HF tend to shoot once & die as someone pointed out.

2.) I have seen people run Vanguard vets with storm shields to provide cover to a foot slogging army to decent effect. Decent effect meaning they provided good protection, the footslogging list was still crap.

There are of course other times but I'm not going to go into every hypothetical situation where they could prove more useful than a suicide speeder like the MM/HF. So yes, you're right endova in MOST situations and MOST lists the landspeeder will be better but to say it is outright better in EVERY list & EVERY situation is to ignore the synergy of an army list & therefore wrong.

Im sorry, but the words footslogging and stormshields for vanguard vets are dead giveaways for bad advice. Both of which you never do with C:SM. Let alone Vanguard vets.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:There are of course other times but I'm not going to go into every hypothetical situation where they could prove more useful than a suicide speeder like the MM/HF. So yes, you're right endova in MOST situations and MOST lists the landspeeder will be better but to say it is outright better in EVERY list & EVERY situation is to ignore the synergy of an army list & therefore wrong.

Vanguards have zero synergy. There is no competitive space marine list where they would have any value.

Riddick40k wrote:Which would be a better Space Marine fast attack choice?

Land Speeder squadron with Heavy Flamer/Multi Melta

Or

10 man vanguard veteran squad with lightning claws and jump packs?

Well, I don't think that MM speeders are the best way to field them -- which I have covered in great detail earlier and I will skim over here.

MM are great weapons, but they need to be close (12") to get their full effect. With an AV of 10, the speeder is easily destroyed/shaken by even small arms fire, and must get in range of enemy anti-tank to do this. In my games when I used them, the MM/HF speeders would get 1 shot off and then were destroyed by the enemy. At best they would take a more expensive vehicle with them, at worst they just gave up an easy KP.

I switched to using typhoons as my speeders of choice. They sit back at 48" range and shoot 2 crack missiles each into enemy transports/light armor. Often they are viewed as a lower priority and never targeted, and event when they are its easy to manage cover for them -- something that the MM/HF speeders have a harder time getting. This makes them much more survivable than their counterparts.

Some people believe that the risk vs. reward is worth it -- but if you simhammer it, you will see that a MM up close, even when twin linked, only has a ~28% of destroying AV 14 up close. Those are not odds I would want to bank giving away a VP on.

Finally, the vets are not worth it. If you need a killer close combat unit, go with TH/SS termies.

imweasel wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:There are of course other times but I'm not going to go into every hypothetical situation where they could prove more useful than a suicide speeder like the MM/HF. So yes, you're right endova in MOST situations and MOST lists the landspeeder will be better but to say it is outright better in EVERY list & EVERY situation is to ignore the synergy of an army list & therefore wrong.

Vanguards have zero synergy. There is no competitive space marine list where they would have any value.

C:SM, that's 99% certainly the case. 2d6" scatter is just too big a risk, and pods w/locator beacons too easy to kill. One MIGHT be able to come up with a competitive C:SM list which made viable use of the Vanguard another way, but they're really too expensive.

In BA, OTOH, they can be quite effective.

@Riddick40K
If using Vulkan it is smart to maximize his ability to twin link weapons. However, you don't HAVE to take all melta and flame weapons. It is not a bad choice to take some long range firepower, too.

Vulkan is nasty in HtH, so you aren't losing out by not maxing on weapons that he improves. However, it would be foolish not to take advantage of it where appropriate.

If you post your list, we can give you a lot more help.

Reecius wrote:@Riddick40K
If using Vulkan it is smart to maximize his ability to twin link weapons. However, you don't HAVE to take all melta and flame weapons. It is not a bad choice to take some long range firepower, too.

Vulkan is nasty in HtH, so you aren't losing out by not maxing on weapons that he improves. However, it would be foolish not to take advantage of it where appropriate.

If you post your list, we can give you a lot more help.

This is solid advice. AC/las preds and rifleman dreads are a fine addition to a vulkan force.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

1.) His list is extremely shooty & he has no assault support. If the enemy get's close and is decent in CC (tons of orks, hormagaunts, banshees / scorpions / Nob Bikers) they could prove useful for a counter assault. Would a heavy flamer speeder also do the job? Yes provided the unit (not just what I mentioned) didn't outflank & get into combat, AND that the speeders are still alive. MM/HF tend to shoot once & die as someone pointed out.

Nope. Still something better for that. Either Assault Termies, (which every Vulkan list should take advantage of, anyway) an Ironclad Dreadnought, which can have a MM/HF (both of which work well with Vulkan) or at least, a squad of Assault Marines with 2 flamers and a thunder hammer on the sergeant, if you've got the points. All of these options will do the job better, and some might be cheaper.

@imweasel

Yeah, that is one of the shortcomings I see often in Vulkan lists. EVERYTHING is short ranged. If you outgun them at range you can do a lot of damage before they are ever in range. Or, even worse, if you are faster, you can just back away and shoot them up. The pointy elves are good at this.