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Vindicator
First off, I have a few gripes about Vindicators. The Vindicator, save its front armor, is a relatively frail tank considering it needs to be close. The Vindicator suffers from single weapon syndrome badly - a single weapon destroyed and you have a 115pt storm bolter. Lastly, considering it is a "Siege tank" its pretty hampered by 5th edition cover saves. Its role as a "Siege Tank" seems pretty misplaced, since you need to catch units in the open to do any real damage.

Its not a underpowered vehicle, I just think it needs a slight rules change to make it seem more of a siege tank, and less a "One-shot wonder". One or more of the following rule adjustments could be applied:

-Better side and rear armor. 4th ed Leman Russes had 14 12 10, while Demolishers had 14 13 11. The Vindicator could have something similar, maybe 13 12 11 with proper points adjustment.

-Fixing 1 weapon syndrome. This applies to any vehicle with the same problem. The gun is massive and is the main part of the vehicle and should be harder to destroy. Weapon destroys could reduce BS by 1 for every weapon destroyed to a minimum of 1. Direct hits are also impossible for vehicles with one or more weapon destroyed results (use the arrow on the direct hit dice)

-Demolisher Cannons ability to attack units in cover. The Demo cannon should have a -1 cover modifier for units inside area terrain. This would represent the massive destructive power of the Demolisher cannon and its ability to destroy fortified positions.

Dreadnought
My biggest gripe with the Dreadnought (regular vanilla Dread, not crazy death company/furiso dreads). They are pathetic facing Monsterous Creatures, but in fluff these massive machines can take MCs one-on-one. On the tabletop it might as well be a marine with a grocerie bag for armor against MCs.

Dreadnoughts are extremly underwhelming in combat unless they can win by default (enemy cannot hurt back). WS 4? A 5000 year old Space Marine has the same WS as a marine in the assault or devistator squads? 2 attacks? Its a walking tank for feth sakes! The dreadnought needs:

- More attacks

- Better WS

-Protection against MCs 2d6 pen. Maybe a save in h2h combat, or MCs can only claim d6+d3 penetration?

scubasteve04 wrote:WS 4? A 5000 year old Space Marine has the same WS as a marine in the assault or devistator squads? 2 attacks? Its a walking tank for feth sakes!

No, a 5000 year old SM wouldn't have the same WS as any random marine. That old marines become Venerable Dreadnoughts, with WS and BS 5. Unless you play Black Templars (don't know about DA), then your point is valid.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:WS 4? A 5000 year old Space Marine has the same WS as a marine in the assault or devistator squads? 2 attacks? Its a walking tank for feth sakes!

No, a 5000 year old SM wouldn't have the same WS as any random marine. That old marines become Venerable Dreadnoughts, with WS and BS 5. Unless you play Black Templars (don't know about DA), then your point is valid.

I was looking in the standard codex, and in the picture that shows the entire ultramarines 2nd company, the dreadnoughts were put in dreadnought armor in M37 and M39. That is not counting time when they were scouts, assault marines, devistators, tactical marines, and veterans. They are just regular dreadnoughts as well (One is the AOBR dread).

Its crazy that a marine that has advanced from scout company, to assault squad, devistator, tactical, and veteran companies and then placed in dreadnought armor at M37 would still be WS4!!!!! WS5 for dreadnoughts is reasonable IMO.

Was just thinking how cool a demolisher armed dreadnought would be. Shame your post isn't this i like your dreadnought ideas, an invulnerable save in CC only would really suit a dreadnought as it ain't just standing still.

I agree.

I don't see how a rock that an ork is hiding under offers him the same protection from a bolter round and a demolisher shell.

Furthermore, i think monstrous creatures should not get 2d6 armour pen vs vehicles -its that simple. Maybe rending vs vehicles yes, but not 2d6 armour pen. A daemon prince hitting you is not the same as a melta bomb blowing up on you.

I agree with you on the Vindicator.
Even if it had a Turret Mounted heavy bolter or some kind of support weapon.

Since your opponent picks the weapon destroyed,you might as well have a mild weapon to carry on with.

adielubbe wrote:I agree.

I don't see how a rock that an ork is hiding under offers him the same protection from a bolter round and a demolisher shell.

Furthermore, i think monstrous creatures should not get 2d6 armour pen vs vehicles -its that simple. Maybe rending vs vehicles yes, but not 2d6 armour pen. A daemon prince hitting you is not the same as a melta bomb blowing up on you.

Then what would my 'Nids have left to kill AV 14 with? Zoanthropes and HG. That's all we'd have left that could do damage, aside from a Carnifex, which would be brought down, and wouldn't make it into CC with a Guard/Marine tank, due to it's speed.

Make it vs. walkers that MCs don't get 2d6.

Footsloggin wrote:

adielubbe wrote:I agree.

I don't see how a rock that an ork is hiding under offers him the same protection from a bolter round and a demolisher shell.

Furthermore, i think monstrous creatures should not get 2d6 armour pen vs vehicles -its that simple. Maybe rending vs vehicles yes, but not 2d6 armour pen. A daemon prince hitting you is not the same as a melta bomb blowing up on you.

Then what would my 'Nids have left to kill AV 14 with? Zoanthropes and HG. That's all we'd have left that could do damage, aside from a Carnifex, which would be brought down, and wouldn't make it into CC with a Guard/Marine tank, due to it's speed.

Make it vs. walkers that MCs don't get 2d6.

Thats what I meant in my post. MCs get normal 2d6 pen vs vehicles, but Dreadnoughts (not all walkers) get better defense (1d6 pen, rending, invul save).

adielubbe wrote:I agree.

I don't see how a rock that an ork is hiding under offers him the same protection from a bolter round and a demolisher shell.

Furthermore, i think monstrous creatures should not get 2d6 armour pen vs vehicles -its that simple. Maybe rending vs vehicles yes, but not 2d6 armour pen. A daemon prince hitting you is not the same as a melta bomb blowing up on you.

Looking at it from the other way now, a hive tyrant (cost of almost 2 dreads) or a trygon or the like costs much more than your dread, has more attacks but at S6
would be doomed versus an Ironclad (FA 13) and almost ineffectual against a standard dread (FA 12). True a carnifex would own you but thanks to their cost in the new codex, you rarely see them anymore. I am sure similar reversals can be found in Daemons, CSM, Eldar, and any other MC.

I have no problem with the way they work vs ranged weapons now so the only issue is HTH.

Here is a suggestion for MC vs Walkers - MC only gets 1 attack vs a dreadnought but for every melee attack the creature would normally get, it gets +1 to its Str for every attack over 1. So S6 w A 4 would get ONE strength 9 attack. That leaves the dreadnought with a likelihood of getting a pen - if hit - but not get owned by virtue of 2d6 + S.

This makes for any easy implementation. MC gets 2d6 + S versus any vehicle EXCEPT - a vehicle that also has a WS characteristic.

Oh, I agree about a billion percent. Better armour and more weapons for the Vindicator would be great. Maybe for about 30 more points, demolisher can ignore cover saves.

I like DAaddict's idea about monstrous versus walkers too, seems like a fair solution.

Hell, even a randomised weapon destroyed mechanic would help the Vindicator and many similar vehicles.

If the vindicator (theoretically) gets this -1 cover modifier, would the Leman Russ Demolisher get it as well? If you were to give the vindicator better armour and a support weapon (like a heavy bolter), you would be erring dangerously close to what a Leman Russ Demolisher is. I think thats part of the charm of the vindicator, is its one weapon-ness and weak flanks.

Considering how few points Vindicators cost you should be happy having a single Str 10 Ordnance weapon. Unless you're unlucky it's bound to do something.

And on the topic of the thousand year old Dreadnaughts, most of them are not that old unless they are Venerable. Also, Dreadnaughts are not fighting every single minute of their lives. They spend most of the time sleeping unless there is a situation important enough for them to be called upon.

grayspark wrote:Considering how few points Vindicators cost you should be happy having a single Str 10 Ordnance weapon. Unless you're unlucky it's bound to do something.

.

But in reality its not guaranteed to do anything. With its 24" range, its likely spending one more more turns getting in position. This gives your opponent 1 free turn of shooting at it. This is worsened by the fact that ALL rolls on the damage table with effectively silence it, rendering it ineffective for a turn (1-2), or useless for the game (3+), unless of course its immobilized with a good field of fire (unlikely).

I run 3, and most of my games I struggle getting a shot off with any.

scubasteve04 wrote:

grayspark wrote:Considering how few points Vindicators cost you should be happy having a single Str 10 Ordnance weapon. Unless you're unlucky it's bound to do something.

.

But in reality its not guaranteed to do anything. With its 24" range, its likely spending one more more turns getting in position. This gives your opponent 1 free turn of shooting at it. This is worsened by the fact that ALL rolls on the damage table with effectively silence it, rendering it ineffective for a turn (1-2), or useless for the game (3+), unless of course its immobilized with a good field of fire (unlikely).

I run 3, and most of my games I struggle getting a shot off with any.

I'd have to say that you're not using LoS blocking correctly then.

You could also alleviate this problem by playing Blood Angels, as they can move 12" and still shoot it or go flat out.

In the first place, if you're using a Mech Army you should easily be able to block shots at them, and in the other case where you can't get LoS blockage, then you're playing on the wrong kind of a table.

scubasteve04 wrote:Vindicator
WS 4? A 5000 year old Space Marine has the same WS as a marine in the assault or devistator squads? 2 attacks? Its a walking tank for feth sakes! The dreadnought needs:

It's like the Eldar dreadnought... it's a marine in a sarcophogas. He's no longer in the land of the living, his senses are dulled and he is less nimble but the armoured skeleton makes him much more durable.

WS4 and 2 attacks is appropriate.

^+1 to that, and think of that veteran marine no longer being able to use neither his hands nor his feet, but some sort of artificial, cybernetic junk that tries to emulate his original organic limbs... Imagine yourself an expert at Counterstrike (medal of honor, gears of war, you name it) having to play the game just with your keyborad or mouse, but never again with any combination of them, as before, just one or the other, but surely one you have had no practice with before... You will see your skill dramatically, inevitably, hampered.

Also think about possible technical limits like that massive machine's moving speed, reflexes or data input (sight, hearing, TOUCH, blind spot/s...).

The side armour of a vindy needs updating. Also if a bolter came free that would be helpful... or something like that it ignores stun/shaken due to the shield.

Yeah, I would settle for 1 more point of side armour and Siege Shield being a bit like a combo Dozer Blade + Extra Armour (+20 points, ignore dangerous terrain, ignore shaken and stunned results). Would make them pretty durable I think compared to now.

I don't usually have an issue with using them effectively, but I have noticed you need to be far more conservative with them then the fluff makes you think, they are NOT LRD's, that is for sure.

Never had problems with my Vindicators.

Mainly because I have 3 and 4 Razorbacks providing LOS.

Also if I go first those Vindicators are a fast vehicle for me.

Old salamander list - 4 rhinos with 3 vindis. Worst case first turn it all moves and pops smoke. Stun the vindis and the rhinos unleash TL flamer and melta love all over the place but most armies are really hard pressed to stun much less drop multiples of vindicators. (esp if their side armor is a rhino not AV11.)

The biggest issue with vindis is the rest of your army. They need to get clos so if the rest of your army wants to sit back and shoot that vindicator is on its own and very vulnerable - exposed AV11 is not a good thing.

You could also alleviate this problem by playing Blood Angels, as they can move 12" and still shoot it or go flat out.

Oh Blood Angels

NamTaey wrote:

You could also alleviate this problem by playing Blood Angels, as they can move 12" and still shoot it or go flat out.

Oh Blood Angels

That's coming from a SW player.

The_Savior wrote:

NamTaey wrote:

You could also alleviate this problem by playing Blood Angels, as they can move 12" and still shoot it or go flat out.

Oh Blood Angels

That's coming from a SW player.

muhaahahahahahahahahahahahaha



Sorry about that. But on a more serious note, I completely agree with dreadnoughts be more awesome

The Vindicator just got a lot better for Black Templars, as they may purchase Power of the Machine Spirit for any vehicle in the their army.

NamTaey wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

NamTaey wrote:

You could also alleviate this problem by playing Blood Angels, as they can move 12" and still shoot it or go flat out.

Oh Blood Angels

That's coming from a SW player.

muhaahahahahahahahahahahahaha



Sorry about that. But on a more serious note, I completely agree with dreadnoughts be more awesome

I used to play Orks too... so I have a fair say in these cheese within our Codices.

But however, I agree with dreads. My friends find it weird that my Furioso is a beast in CC, but normal dreads are sorta "meh" to say the least.

I also believe Vindis should be 13-12-10