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My first post, I looked and couldn’t find this situation or a resolution, so here it goes.

Senario:

Hive Tyrant and 1 Guard are Assulted by 2 units of 5 Blood Angles with hidden power fists. Unit 1 is only in base with the Guard, unit 2 is only in base with the Tyrant. The Tyrant attacks first at I6, killing off 3 in Unit 2. The BA Attack back at I5 doing 3 wounds and the Guard attacks back at I5 doing 3 wounds. Saves are failed and the Guard dies and the Tyrant has 1 wound (due to wound distrubtion). Power fists have not struck yet.

Problem:

According to the FAQ, while the Tyrant is with the guard he is considered an upgrade to the unit. When the Guard dies, the shield wall rule is lost, thus not allowing the Tyrant to be part of the unit anymore. The Guard unit is destroyed and the Tyrant is it's own unit again.

The Question:

Since the Guard unit is destroyed, any power fists that were part of the BA unit that was only in base with the Guard, would be lost, as they would attack the destroyed unit, or do all the power fists get to attack the Tyrant as it was part of the destoryed unit.

My thought and reasoning:

I believe the Tyrant is safe, as it is not part of the destroyed unit of Guard anymore. On Pg 39(I think) you choose what units are attacking which units. And if there is a large Multi-Unit scrum where you destroy a unit and you don’t have anyone in base with another unit, you loose any further attacks. I believe the same logic follows here.

Please let me know your thoughts and reasoning, if possible cite the pg number to support your argument.

Thanks for helping.

Yonush wrote:
The Guard unit is destroyed and the Tyrant is it's own unit again.

That's where you made the mistake. Once a Tyrant joins a Guard unit, he is JOINED to that unit. The Shieldwall is the rule that allows him to do so, but once he has joined the unit (using the rules for ICs joining a unit) he is now a normal member of that unit.

So once the other Guard are killed he doesn't suddenly become a separate unit, instead he is simply the last model of that unit. Because unlike normal 'retinue' units, he is NOT an IC, so he doesn't 'revert' to anything when the Guard are killed.

Once he joins the Guard, that's it. The unit (including him) are worth 1 Kill Point and Victory Points would be calculated with the Tyrant and the Tyrant Guard all lumped together as a single unit.

You can't use the multiple unit/split attack rules as there aren't multiple Tyranid units. There's one.

All of the Blood Angels are engaged with the single Tyranid unit, as determined under Who Can Fight? That's where all their attacks go, and your Tyrant gets pounded to death by powerfists.

yakface wrote:
So once the other Guard are killed he doesn't suddenly become a separate unit, instead he is simply the last model of that unit. Because unlike normal 'retinue' units, he is NOT an IC, so he doesn't 'revert' to anything when the Guard are killed.

This hits on a question I asked a month or two ago but did not get a response to about a similar situation for a Canoness. If her retinue is slain at I4, and she is not in base with a PF, does the PF still get swings on her since the 'unit' is dead? (sorry to hijack but it seemed a relevant place to ask)

calypso2ts wrote:

yakface wrote:
So once the other Guard are killed he doesn't suddenly become a separate unit, instead he is simply the last model of that unit. Because unlike normal 'retinue' units, he is NOT an IC, so he doesn't 'revert' to anything when the Guard are killed.

This hits on a question I asked a month or two ago but did not get a response to about a similar situation for a Canoness. If her retinue is slain at I4, and she is not in base with a PF, does the PF still get swings on her since the 'unit' is dead? (sorry to hijack but it seemed a relevant place to ask)

Yes. You determine who can fight at the beginning of the combat, and at the beginning of the combat the power fist was able to hit her.

It was able to hit the unit she used to be a part of. However, when the retinue dies she becomes an IC which counts as a separate unit in CC...

Your answer might be correct, but I think it is more complex than that...

yakface wrote:
That's where you made the mistake. Once a Tyrant joins a Guard unit, he is JOINED to that unit. The Shieldwall is the rule that allows him to do so, but once he has joined the unit (using the rules for ICs joining a unit) he is now a normal member of that unit.

So once the other Guard are killed he doesn't suddenly become a separate unit, instead he is simply the last model of that unit. Because unlike normal 'retinue' units, he is NOT an IC, so he doesn't 'revert' to anything when the Guard are killed.

Once he joins the Guard, that's it. The unit (including him) are worth 1 Kill Point and Victory Points would be calculated with the Tyrant and the Tyrant Guard all lumped together as a single unit.

But the rule allowing him to be a part of the unit is no longer in play, therefor he CAN'T be part of a unit. Where is the rule that says special rules persist once the model is off the board?

Yonush wrote:

yakface wrote:
That's where you made the mistake. Once a Tyrant joins a Guard unit, he is JOINED to that unit. The Shieldwall is the rule that allows him to do so, but once he has joined the unit (using the rules for ICs joining a unit) he is now a normal member of that unit.

So once the other Guard are killed he doesn't suddenly become a separate unit, instead he is simply the last model of that unit. Because unlike normal 'retinue' units, he is NOT an IC, so he doesn't 'revert' to anything when the Guard are killed.

Once he joins the Guard, that's it. The unit (including him) are worth 1 Kill Point and Victory Points would be calculated with the Tyrant and the Tyrant Guard all lumped together as a single unit.

But the rule allowing him to be a part of the unit is no longer in play, therefor he CAN'T be part of a unit. Where is the rule that says special rules persist once the model is off the board?

Well that is just it, as Yakface said, once the Guards are gone he IS the unit. The Shieldwall rule merges the two together, the Tyrant and the Guard, making them ONE unit, so when
the Guards are dead he is the only one left in the unit.

//Edge

Yonush wrote:

But the rule allowing him to be a part of the unit is no longer in play, therefor he CAN'T be part of a unit. Where is the rule that says special rules persist once the model is off the board?

It all has to do with the fact that the tyrant was never an IC to begin with. Once all the guards are dead he doesn't gain IC status. He is just the last standing model of the unit. The unit was created with a special rule, and the rule does not have to stay around for him to have been a part of it, and the last man standing.

According to the MC Rule, they can not be a part of a unit.

According to the Shield Wall Rule, a Tyrant can join the unit.

According to the FAQ, once the Guard dies, the Tyrant Reverts back to a MC, which can't be part of a unit.

The Guard Unit is destoryed and the Tyrant is a MC Unit again.

According to the Multi-Unit combats, you must have a model in base to base to attack a unit or within 2" of a model in the unit in base to base to get your attacks.

The Rules support me. Please show me the rule or precendent in a separate faq that supports it remains part of a unit.

Yonush - incorrect, actually. It just says they *normally* cant be part of a unit.

You miss that it is "join". It happened - the tyrant joined the unit. Past tense. It is now a normal member of the unit.

The Tyrant is still a MC even when it joins the Guard. The guard just has a special rule the allows you to attach it. Since the Tyrant cannot be separated from the guard once joined, they count as a single unit.

This is similar to attaching a WH Priest to a unit for example.

As a single unit, models within 2" of a model in their unit in base contact can make swings in CC, so that fist gets to swing.

Sorry, the Tyrant does not revert to being anything, it remains a MC the whole time. Your whole argument hinges on this premise which is false.

calypso2ts wrote:
Sorry, the Tyrant does not revert to being anything, it remains a MC the whole time. Your whole argument hinges on this premise which is false.

Not according to the Tyranid FAQ.

"...until the Guards are all destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts to the normal rules for monstrous creatures..."

Yonush wrote:According to the MC Rule, they can not be a part of a unit.

That is not true, in any case. MC are not intrisically restricted from being in a unit.

Yonush wrote:
Not according to the Tyranid FAQ.

"...until the Guards are all destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts to the normal rules for monstrous creatures..."

Which FAQ are you looking at? (it looks like you are reading the old Tyranid FAQ). I am reading the July 2010 FAQ from the GW site and I do not see that line in it at all. The only reference I see are questions 6 and 7 of the FAQ on pg 1 which have 1 word answers.

Also, it reverts to the normal rules for a MC, it doesn't revert to being a MC. If it is not a MC what unit type is it?

Edit: Also if it is not a MC are you prepared to give up ignoring Armor Saves and rolling 2d6 for armor pen?

calypso2ts wrote:

Which FAQ are you looking at? (it looks like you are reading the old Tyranid FAQ). I am reading the July 2010 FAQ from the GW site and I do not see that line in it at all. The only reference I see are questions 6 and 7 of the FAQ on pg 1 which have 1 word answers.

Also, it reverts to the normal rules for a MC, it doesn't revert to being a MC. If it is not a MC what unit type is it?

Edit: Also if it is not a MC are you prepared to give up ignoring Armor Saves and rolling 2d6 for armor pen?

He's referencing the old Tyranid FAQ, which covered the previous codex.

If im looking at the old FAQ, that would expain the confusion. Ill double check the faq when I get home.

Boy do I feel sheepish... I was reading the Old FAQ.

Thanks guys.

No problem it is better to clear it up on the boards than in the middle of a game.

IIRC, 5th Ed. codex rules Hive tyrant as being NOT an IC, though tyrant guard codex entry states "A single hive tyrant (...) may join a tyrant guard unit exactly as if it were an IC" hive tyrant guard seems no longer a unit by its own (except, of course, after its tyrant's death) like a dedicated transport, but an add-on for the tyrant, now a "regular" TMC.
Unfortunately, the wording I understand as it is a similar procedure, but there's no real IC there (it is a status you lose and get back if previously had, but never gain from scratch in the middle of battle), so wound allocation would follow ordinary unit process instead of IC+unit process.

It looks to me as a unit which basic size is 10 man but you can buy 5 more, think of that 10 man size as the tyrant and the 5 additional man as the guard, apart from meaning a bigger unit, there's no other effect to that.

Put back again on tyrant's matter, you can assign hits and wounds among any model in the unit, with only restrictions noted in BRB for multiple wound/model units.
This way, no unsaved wound (tyrant and guard have the same, so 1 simultaneous dice roll for all) is lost if there are more of these than remaining wounds on guard model, they go to the tyrant, granted you assigned wounds on guard first, then the tyrant, of course.

Some (NOT ALL!!!) MC status traits are suspended, such as 50% real hiding for cover, but not armor ignoring or penetration bonus on CC.

Of course, this is an interpretation and could (will?) be promplty corrected, but it is a point of view I see allowed in the rules.

What happens to blind rampage USR's (specially rage) if the other tyrant joins the unit?

ENKHANNA wrote:
Some (NOT ALL!!!) MC status traits are suspended, such as 50% real hiding for cover, but not armor ignoring or penetration bonus on CC.

No, he is still a monstrous creature. The reason he can get a cover save when with Tyrant Guard is because a unit only needs to have 50% of its models in cover to get the cover save...it doesn't matter which models are actually in cover or not.

So if the Tyrant Guard are behind cover then the whole unit gets the cover save.


In short, absolutely NO traits of the Monstrous Creature are given up when the Tyrant joins his guard.

not given up, I typed suspended intentionally because tyrant model can be clearly in the open, but guards can be behind a wall (always in coherency with tyrant ) thus providing he can be actually 0% hidden (the model) but in cover (the unit).

On an unrelated note, I appreciate your comments and often take good note of whatever you post, thank you.