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I am sure this has come up before, but I did a search and scanned the forum and didn't see it.

I see a lot of people trying to make the argument that you can pivot a tank on it's axis and then move or vice versa; in effect adding distance onto the movement of the vehicle. For example, a DE skimmer which is rectangular in profile starts the game lined up parallel to its deployment edge. In it's movement phase it pivots on its center axis, swinging it's nose to be perpendicular to the deployment line and now a few inches over it. It then moves 12" inches, measuring from the nose of the vehicle. The vehicle has now moved an extra few inches.

Is this legal? The BGB says pivoting does not count as movement however it also states the vehicle may pivot as many times as it wants during it's movement so long as it does not exceed it's maximum movement, which to me means no point of the vehicle may move further than the designated distance form the starting point of the vehicle. Is this correct? Otherwise you could move the vehicle a fraction of an inch, pivot, move a fraction, pivot again and effectively move across the entire board so long as your vehicle where not a perfect square.

They are not really adding distance to the move itself. The center stays where it is. Pivoting before a move adds no more distance than pivoting after a move. The center of the vehicle will be no further away if the pivot prior to moving.

Reecius wrote:I am sure this has come up before, but I did a search and scanned the forum and didn't see it.

I see a lot of people trying to make the argument that you can pivot a tank on it's axis and then move or vice versa; in effect adding distance onto the movement of the vehicle. For example, a DE skimmer which is rectangular in profile starts the game lined up parallel to its deployment edge. In it's movement phase it pivots on its center axis, swinging it's nose to be perpendicular to the deployment line and now a few inches over it. It then moves 12" inches, measuring from the nose of the vehicle. The vehicle has now moved an extra few inches.

Is this legal? The BGB says pivoting does not count as movement however it also states the vehicle may pivot as many times as it wants during it's movement so long as it does not exceed it's maximum movement, which to me means no point of the vehicle may move further than the designated distance form the starting point of the vehicle. Is this correct? Otherwise you could move the vehicle a fraction of an inch, pivot, move a fraction, pivot again and effectively move across the entire board so long as your vehicle where not a perfect square.

Yes it is legal to do that. I think there is something you're forgetting though in your example; the vehicle is rectangular. If you pivot say ninety degrees on turn oneto gain another two inches (Using DE Raiders as an example) right away, then pivot ninety degrees to gain more distance laterally you lose that 2 inches you gained initially. So by trying the pivot trick, you only ever gain the initial distance since vehicles are rectangular because you can gain more distance to the side, but when you pivot again you really aren't any further ahead because you pivot on the midpoint of the vehicle, not the front.

^^ What both those guys said.

You can pivot schmivot. If the front of the tank is nearer point A, the side of the tank is farther from point Z.

The difference this makes will depend on the position of all the other units in the game.

This is what I am talking about. This does add inched of movement when done as illustrating.


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It makes a big difference for assault vehicles primarily.

Move the tank the same distance side ways and pivot afterwards. You will be in the exact same location. Also move the tank the same distance sideways and then leave it. The center of each vehicle will have moved the same distance.

Here you go:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294492.page


We got quite a few votes on that thread an its pretty clear that the vast majority allows the 'bonus' movement to occur.

Sadly this is legal as long as you are doing the pivoting at the end of your movement. Pivoting a vehicle then measuring your distance to move is plain wrong.

I personally have reservations about this and will never use it as I find it to be underhanded. That's my point of view take offense if you must.

@Melchior
I understand what you are saying, but for the purposes of assault, measuring distance, etc. it is a big advantage.

I'm with you Rymafyr, I feel that it clearly violates the spirit of the rule, if not the letter. However, by raw, I can see the argument.

Well, at least GW is getting better. Hopefully with 6th ed the put an end to this kind of crap.

i do this all the time lol... and noone minds.

NM.

Well, hell if it is legal might as well get used to it and use it to my advantage! I feel that it is not what was intended but I play RAW as intentions don't matter (and are not clear anyway) and rules do.

Spinning tanks, here we come!

The only time you truly gain any distance with this in during deployment is you turn sideways and stradle the line.

I'll give you 2-3 inches for the chance of first turn side and rear shots. And for the fragile armor 10 all-round guys, you need all the help you can get.

The rules only grant vehicles forward and reverse movement, so those people who move the very side of their vehicle up to the maximum move are actually kind of cheating *IF* they start the game off with the 'free' pivot.

In short, you should only ever gain this distance once per game (barring really strange circumstances).

The picture a few posts up shows an illegal pivot, iirc, since it isn't pivoted around a central axis. If pivoting is allowed as a free move around any point on the vehicle's projected 2D hull, well... you can all see where that is going.

Gaining distance by pivoting around central axis is legal. As has been repeated to death

Edit: Yakface, I've never been able to find anywhere where a model of any kind has to move forward or backward explicitly stated by the rules, except when tank shocking. I've tried because I think it's ridiculous when a tank skids sideways (even my own skimmers.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not passing judgment as the rules clearly allow it under the right circumstances. It would make me feel awkward if I did this and I can then only assume what my opponent would think as well.

In a tournament setting I can certainly see why someone would want to maximize their potential. DE are just so darned fast to begin with I just have no reason to use this anyway.

@Veldarin
Yes, but with tanks with the same armor all around that isn;t an issue.

@Mahtomori
That drawing was done with MS Paint, haha, it is meant to be a pivot on the central axis although it is not super accurate.

Pg. 57 states that vehicles move forward and backwards but may pivot to alter direction.

@Yak
Thanks for the clarification. I feel kind of bad as in a game last night I wouldn't allow my opponent to do just this, and it turns out I was wrong. After reading the rules I thought I was incorrect and I double checked here and confirmed it.

Oh well, he still got the charge off no problem, but it is good to know for future games.

Actually vehicles, like all models, can move as infantry except where this is denied.

It is nowhere denied that they can move as infantry, so they CAN move sideways. Most of the vehicle movement rules are superfluous....

Vehicles being able to move sideways is one interpretation of the rules.

The other interpretation is that vehicles can move forward and backwards...which is based upon the vehicle rules on pg 56 and 57. Page 56 forms the basis for this idea, where it tells us " their rules (refers to vehicles) differ from other models in a number of ways, detailed here." One can then follow this idea to the vehicles and movement section on the following page to come up with the forward and backward movement idea that *seems* to be the idea that gw follows.


Sliggoth