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I see full units of Thunder hammer Terminators all the time, however I never see full units of Lightning claw Termintators. Why is that? Lightning claws add another attack, are rerollable, and hit at initiative. With 4 attacks on the charge each at initiative, a unit of lightning claw termies could make short work of just about anything that isn't a vehicle or has a high toughness.

Ignoring the benefits of the Storm Shield, why is it that no one takes units of entirely lightning claw terminators?

Because you can't ignore the benefits of Storm Shields. Plus, a unit composed entirely of Lightning Claws isn't as flexible; it can't engage all targets the way TH/SS does. Lightning claw termies have their place, but that place isn't in entire dedicated Lightning claw termie squads in most cases.

If a dreadnought charges a squad of lightning claw terminators, and there is no one else around, does anyone hear their wails of despair?

Jihallah wrote:If a dreadnought charges a squad of lightning claw terminators, and there is no one else around, does anyone hear their wails of despair?

Uh, that's kinda a faulty logic, as it implies that you're always going to face a dreadnought. Or that someone's stupid enough to have Terminators near a walker to begin with.

LC are underutilized. One top of +1 attack and striking on initiative a very important bonus is the allow assault termies to split their attacks between different initiative values. That being said a unit of pure lightning claws is crazy. Besides SS being good, a pure LC unit doesn't have any anti walker or anti tank capabilities. Mixed squads are the way to go, the real debate is what should the LC to TH/SS ratio be?

If you want to ignore the Storm Shield (which is stupid as its part of what makes them so good) and just look at damage output then you will find the main failing of LCs is S4. At S8 Thunderhammers can kill anything in the game, up to a Land Raider if they really have to. Their main use is to completely smash up Elite units and MCs, and S8 makes them a great way to quickly deal with most characters as well. The only thing they really struggle against are horde type units, they can kill MEQ eventually but will clearly get swamped by Orks/Blob Squads etc.

LCs on the other hand will make a huge mess of any kind of infantry including hordes. The problem is that at S4 they can't threaten vehicles, can struggle a bit against some tougher infantry and are totally stuffed against walkers. However Marines are very rarely lacking in anti horde with plenty of missile launchers, flamers and if nothing else bolters can do the job, which is one of the reasons you don't see LCs as much. I do agree that they are somewhat underused, as long as there are more TH/SS guys than LCs guys you are still fine from a survivability standpoint and even 1 LC guy in every 5 man unit can be very helpful for getting some kills at initiative. However going all TH/SS means you can just run the unit up the board on foot which is slower but significantly cheaper than needing to buy a Land Raider. The only time I would suggest taking large units of LC Terminators is if you can get them FC or some other way of getting S5, but even then a couple of TH/SS guys are still a good idea. The problem with this though is that you lose a huge amount of survivability which means you probably need a Land Raider, which bumps you points cost up and Terminator count down.

What are your thoughts on squads with 2 LC and 3 TH/SS Termies with BA (assuming they will also have a sang priest or will be in range of one)? It still gives you some 3+ invulns to offload armor ignoring hits, and unless you are going against fairly high initiative troops, gives you the opportunity to take out a fair bit of the opposition before they get to swing.

It's always a good idea to run a mix of both unless your list tailoring. Personally I run either 2 TH/SS and 3 claws or 4 claws and 1 TH/SS. Saying your talking TH's to anti-tank is just silly with the amount of melta space marines can bring. But if your metagame is MC heavy I could see running more TH's

As a DA player, I run 2 of each and a heavy flamer. If I had to choose though, I'd say 3:2 for TH

I usually run 2 LC, 3 TH. On the charge thats 8 I4 attacks and 9 str8 attacks. That way you can get some hits in before a unit possibly wipes you, yet you still aren't vulnerable to MCs and vehicles. I think its the best of both worlds.

i run a mix, usually 2-3 of LCs to THs.

majority is always THs, but i keep a couple of LCs for when i need to rip through infantry because THs don't have enough attacks to kill infantry quickly.

For my space wolves I run a 6 man squad of wolf guard termies. 3 have a wolf claw and storm shield, 3 have dual wolf claws. These guys shred up infantry like no tomorrow, are resilient, and have counter charge. For a pure anti infantry squad they are incredible. Specialized for 1 role, just like the Eldar do it. Probably why so many marine players dont like it

Maelstrom808 wrote:What are your thoughts on squads with 2 LC and 3 TH/SS Termies with BA (assuming they will also have a sang priest or will be in range of one)? It still gives you some 3+ invulns to offload armor ignoring hits, and unless you are going against fairly high initiative troops, gives you the opportunity to take out a fair bit of the opposition before they get to swing.

This is a unit that I usually run, along with a chaplain. It's a bit expensive but is generally very effective as long as they are in the thick of the fighting. Get stuck footslogging and they may spend a good part of the game trying to catch up.

A 60/40 mix with TH being in the majority seems to be the majority consensus, which I agree with. On the 60/40 mix in a 5 man it's 3/2 which is 9 th attacks and 8 lc attacks, or 18 th & 16lc in a 10 man unit.

Where my opinion differs from norm is I don't believe in land raiders. Assault terminators are as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face, land raiders are a ton of points that attempt to give them some amount of grace as long as nobody meltas the land raider. I just think they are best off staying as a sledgehammer and remaining 10 strong with a chaplain or BA librarian to give them preferred enemy. They will either need a beacon to deep strike, or they can footslog across the board while being shot at because they are tough enough to take it and will cover an average of 19" in 2 turns being able to assault units in the enemy deployment zone by turn 3.

schadenfreude wrote:A 60/40 mix with TH being in the majority seems to be the majority consensus, which I agree with. On the 60/40 mix in a 5 man it's 3/2 which is 9 th attacks and 8 lc attacks, or 18 th & 16lc in a 10 man unit.

Where my opinion differs from norm is I don't believe in land raiders. Assault terminators are as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face, land raiders are a ton of points that attempt to give them some amount of grace as long as nobody meltas the land raider. I just think they are best off staying as a sledgehammer and remaining 10 strong with a chaplain or BA librarian to give them preferred enemy. They will either need a beacon to deep strike, or they can footslog across the board while being shot at because they are tough enough to take it and will cover an average of 19" in 2 turns being able to assault units in the enemy deployment zone by turn 3.

I agree with you there, although I don't always run a 10 man squad (even though I have to great effect). I don't usually put termies in a land raider, instead I use those points to build a bigger squad or beef up the rest of my army. I know most will say that it shouldn't be done this way because they are going to spend the game chasing the enemy around the table and never making contact but this hasn't really been the case in my games, more often than not they keep their hammers and claws bloody. I find that when they are in a LR the transport gets popped early and I end up footslogging them anyway.

The main reason why I would field a full unit of TH/SS Terminators in favor of LC Terminators is overall survivability. Like everyone else has said, a 3+ Invul Save is a hard thing to pass up. On top of that, you have the versatility to take on any unit from any codex. The only downsides in comparison are 1) attacking at Init 1 and 2) 1 less attack. However, this is the reason why they carry Storm Shields; to help them survive combat long enough for them to be able to attack. And when you're wounding on 2+ (against most units), and quite possibly causing Instant Death to most models, do you really need an extra attack for them to be more effective? Unless you're facing horde-like armies (ie - Tyranids and Orks), TH/SS Terminators will more than likely get the "Go" in most All-Comers Lists.

On taking a mix of both kinds, personally, I'm not a fan of doing so, but if I were to, it would depend on what the rest of my list looked like. If I have enough high volume fire power from the rest of the list, then I'd go with more TH/SS over LC. If I have more high Str single shots/CC attacks, then I'd go with more LC over TH/SS.

The logic is simple, and the concepts are effective. Hope that was insightful.

Rurouni Benshin: I don't agree with your idea of increased survivability for one reason: single wound models. Because terminators are single wound models, if they fail one save, then you have one less terminators. Many a time I have been hit by units with a lot of attacks, and when you start failing saves left and right, your sledgehammer is more of a slap on the wrist.

Well, wound allocation is still good even on single wound models. Why?

You have two plague marines on an objective in the open. I land 2 plasma wounds and 2 bolter wounds to the two of them. The plague marines suck it and die.

Now, let's say I have a sergeant and a plague marine. I allocate both plasma wounds to the plague marine, and both bolter wounds go on the sergeant.

Odds are, with 3+ and feel no pain, the sergeant lives.

You can do similar things with terminators. Some have 3++, others have 5++, some have feel no pain, and the lightning claws and thunderhammers all strike on different initiatves. If the squad has feel no pain, you can stack all the powerfist/powerweapon wounds on one terminator type.

PraetorDave wrote:Rurouni Benshin: I don't agree with your idea of increased survivability for one reason: single wound models. Because terminators are single wound models, if they fail one save, then you have one less terminators. Many a time I have been hit by units with a lot of attacks, and when you start failing saves left and right, your sledgehammer is more of a slap on the wrist.

True, all Terminators are single wound models. Perhaps I should've been more specific when I said "survivability". In terms of survivability, I mean the overall ability to take strong fire power (and by this I mean any weapon that's higher than Str 4 AND AP 2 or 1) and still have a decent chance of making their respective save.

Yes, once a save is failed, a Terminator will die. Such is the usual tactic when facing them, that people tend to go with "quantity over quality" when shooting at them. However, as a foot slogging Death Star unit, I would still take TH/SS Terminators over LC Terminators. LC Terminators are more likely to be targeted by Vindicator and Plasma Cannon fire, if there are no other high Infantry threats on the board. A single Devastator Squad or Vindicator could easily wipe out (or come close to) an entire LC Terminator unit in a single Shooting phase, where as a squad of TH/SS would statistically have a better chance of surviving against the same attacks. Bearing this in mind, your opponent would have to adjust his strategy depending on which type he is facing. The trick is being able to identify what type of threat your opponent's unit is, and then having the answer for it accordingly.

Taking into account your experiences with Terminators, it would be suffice to say that your opponent was able to identify the threat in your Terminators and brought the correct solution to face them with. Not that this is any discredit to your skill level as a player or anything, but just that your opponent was able to compensate for an area that he may not have been prepared to face.

I prefer TH/SS on all my termies.

Better save is nice, but even nicer is the weapon they wield.

If I'm playing marines I have a ton of S4 weapons. I can even take quite a few PW at S4 (sarges, command sqauds, honor guard ect) Termies give me cheap 2+/3++ Thunder hammers. A weapon that can kill most anything, and a unit that can survive to swing it in numbers to actually do it.

Against some units that spam attacks, the TH/SS might not have as many models to attack with as the LCs. Of these orks come to mind where the LC get to swing before the enemy. Termies in CC against non nobs is not a good use of them. Against DE, both units effectively have I1 (since they are going last). Nids CC unit also have higher Initiative. Against Meqs, you go at same time with LCs, so don't really reduce casualties much, but inflict more. Against MCs, the high S TH that wounds on a 2 is better than the LC that gets to reroll 6s. (then there is the handy TH rule if the target survives)

I take TH/SS units to take on the things the rest of the list can't. The rest of the list can handle hordes and Meqs just fine. It can struggle against multi wound infantry and MCs. Having an overkill anti tank CC unit also helpful. The amount of fire power (AP or not) that they absorb after they do their job is also helpful (even if it means they die). LC are good at killing things the rest of the army can, and aren't as durable against the opposing fire power. So they don't serve my purpose at all.

Mixing squads might be worth it, as the unit is probably gong to be as durable against AP fire (which usually is just 1-2 shots per unit firing at it) but when the TH go down, it huts even more... Add in the fact that the LCs dilute the units ability to hurt big things and vehicles, It is just a way to make the squad worse for the purpose I plan for them. (multitasking: doing 2+ things badly)

Crusaderobr wrote:For my space wolves I run a 6 man squad of wolf guard termies. 3 have a wolf claw and storm shield, 3 have dual wolf claws. These guys shred up infantry like no tomorrow, are resilient, and have counter charge. For a pure anti infantry squad they are incredible. Specialized for 1 role, just like the Eldar do it. Probably why so many marine players dont like it

Ha, SW paying 63 points each for TH/SS termies really make you appreciate the lightningclaws. For a squad of 5 TH/SS you pay almost twice the price as vanilla marines do. Plus, you get to chose rerolls for wounds or hits, making them slightly better/flexible than ordinary claws.

LR Crusader w/ 5 TH/SS, 2 LC, Sanguinary priest in termie armor

Epic Deathstar for 625 I think.

Against stuff that's AP3+, Storm Shields have the same survivability as regular Terminator Armour: Sv2+.

If you want the Power Fist effect of the Thunder Hammer, regular Terminators have that, Chain Fists, Storm Bolters, and Cyclones. That extra round of shooting multiplies their lethality.

Lightening Claws, on the other hand, have those extra attacks. Thunder Hammers are more reliable against a broader range of targets, but they're reliable for ~0.5 wounds per attack, and units of Terminators don't have that many attacks.

If your Lightening Claw Terminators get charged by a Dreadnought, then use Combat Tactics to get them out of dodge. Thunder Hammers are better against vehicles, but then so are Chain Fists, and why are you chasing vehicles with Terminators? Use guns to hunt vehicles - easier to hit and AP1 gets the bonus.

Nurglitch wrote:Against stuff that's AP3+, Storm Shields have the same survivability as regular Terminator Armour: Sv2+.

If you want the Power Fist effect of the Thunder Hammer, regular Terminators have that, Chain Fists, Storm Bolters, and Cyclones. That extra round of shooting multiplies their lethality.

Lightening Claws, on the other hand, have those extra attacks. Thunder Hammers are more reliable against a broader range of targets, but they're reliable for ~0.5 wounds per attack, and units of Terminators don't have that many attacks.

If your Lightening Claw Terminators get charged by a Dreadnought, then use Combat Tactics to get them out of dodge. Thunder Hammers are better against vehicles, but then so are Chain Fists, and why are you chasing vehicles with Terminators? Use guns to hunt vehicles - easier to hit and AP1 gets the bonus.

Shooting termies aren't all that good in CC. They can't take on CC specialists like the TH/SS ones, since they get a much worse save against PW and rending. Their chain fists are almost as good, they only lack the auto shake and dropping initiative rule in exchange for paying 5 points more and getting 2d6 pen (against most things rear armor 10 that is overkill, but good against AV14, which is what melta is for). They don't have the number of attacks that LC termies have. So they have slightly worse CC weapons than THs, a much worse invul, and not as many attacks as LCs? So are we combining weaknesses of the two units and calling them strength?

As others have pointed out, combat tactics isn't all that great for escaping CC.

I see termies as a unit that kills the things that the rest of your army doesn't want to deal with. Dreds, MCs, PW or rending assault type units, multiwound units (nobs, nid warriors, ICs, ect). TH/SS termies kill these with their limited but effective attacks, as a bonus they can also destroy tanks. LC termies kill the things that the rest of the army can kill. Like basic troops, T4 and lower models, and low initiative hordes.

notabot187:

Yeah, I've pointed out how Combat Tactics is just fine for escaping from close combat in other threads. To summarize: You need either a unit to lock the opposing units in close combat so they can't catch the Terminators in a Sweep Advance, and backstop them so that they can get the necessary 6" to automatically regroup.

Speaking of basic tactics, you don't want your Terminators to take on close combat specialists, you want them to shoot those close combat specialists, and they can do so thanks to their ability to move and shoot with an effective range of 18" if they move directly away from those close combat units. Use their close combat abilities to mop up the survivors of shooting.

The ability to shoot makes them more dangerous to more units during the game, as well as allowing them to soften up units which they should be charging, and units which might charge them. This ability to shoot makes them more effective against hordes then Lightening Claws - against Sv5+ their Storm Bolters are better than a pair of Lightening Claws.

Suggesting that Terminators combine the weaknesses of both types of Assault Terminator misses the point that Terminators have the capabilities of both and then some capabilities that neither have them.

But hey, let's go back to thinking inside the box. Let's consider a unit of Lightening Claw Terminators getting charged by a unit of Thunder Hammer Terminators.

Lightening Claw Terminators have 15 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+ (re-roll misses), saving on 3+. That's 1.85 unsaved wounds, or ~2 expected casualties.

So the Thunder Hammers get 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, saving on 5+. That's 2.54 unsaved wounds, or ~3 expected casualties.

If the Lightening Claw Terminators charge, that's 20 attacks. That's 2.48 unsaved wounds, or ~3 expected casualties. Then the Thunder Hammers get 4 attacks. That's 1.10 unsaved wounds, or ~1 expected casualty.

I play full THSS. You are getting ~1 extra wound on the enemy (at t4) with a squad that has 3thss and 2 lightning claws, but the decrease in survivability just isn't worth it. Assault termies are good because of their survivabilty. Lightning claws aren't that great on their own. A TH will wound better then a rerolling lightning claw, the LC just simply has an extra attack. Ofcourse the LC has the potential to kill a lot more then THSS, but realistically you don't gain much by taking LC, unless you have FC.

That potential counts for a lot. Getting lucky with Lightening Claws makes much more difference than getting lucky with Thunder Hammers.

Actually, a LC has almost the same wound ratio as a TH against T4 and beats it against T3. LCs better against T4 because of the extra attack.

2 LC to 3 TH/SS is the ratio I like. Decent survivability coupled with the ability to strike at intiative order with 4 attacks and re-rolling wounds. Pure TH/SS squads should be limited to Vulkan lists IMO, where the master-crafted somewhat mitigates the lack of attacks.

L. Wrex

While mathematically when pitted against each other, as Nurglitch said, LC Terminators will beat TH/SS Terminators by attrition. However, I don't think that that alone makes a very reliable argument on which unit is better. I would say that depending on how the rest of the list is made, either a LC Terminator squad or TH/SS Terminator squad would make the list better, but NOT a combination of both.

Granted, this is my personal preference on how I play my Terminators, so YMMV with your own experiences. Bottom line for me is though, of the two choices available to me in an All-Comers list? I would take a full TH/SS squad over the LC squad.