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For the Emprah, here's the list:

HQ:
Belial - TH/SS - 130pts

Troops:
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Company Banner, Apothecary, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist - 295pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist - 240pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist - 240pts

Fast Attack:
3x Ravenwing Bikes - 2x Melta, PF - 165pts
3x Ravenwing Bikes - 2x Melta, PF - 165pts

Heavy Support:
Land Raider Crusader w/extra armor - 265pts

Total: 1500pts

*plan is simple, Belial Deathstar squad in LR. Ravenwing scouts forward to deploy remaining two terminator squads.

LR will die to AT
6xbikes also die to long ranged AT
and termies die to massed fire

Devastator wrote:LR will die to AT
6xbikes also die to long ranged AT
and termies die to massed fire

And this is different from any other list... how?

OP: IMO your list is OK, a question, how are the DWT arranged? Is it 3 TH/SS, TH/SS/cyclone and SB/CF or it it 4 TH/SS and SB/cyclone/CF. The first set would be better because your heavy weapon gets a 3++ and you don't lose both the chainfist and cyclone if your HW/CF goes down.

Might I suggest a heavy flamer on Belials squad, he isn't going to be shooting much. As well as this I'd give Belial Lightning claws to make use of his higher initiative but YMMV.

Devastator wrote:LR will die to AT
6xbikes also die to long ranged AT
and termies die to massed fire

You can say that about every unit in every list.....

Devastator wrote:LR will die to AT
6xbikes also die to long ranged AT
and termies die to massed fire

Its so nice with insightful comments like this

Personally I wouldnt bother with RW, just walk your Termies up the field.
Get some cheap ass MM/Typhoon speeders as well. 225pts for 6 missiles and 3 MMs is pretty insane really.

Cheap Ven.Dreads is also nice.

Regarding the TH&SS vs LC issue on Belial. The diffrerence between 5++ and 3++ is worth loosing an attack and striking at i 1. If they actually founf his Iron Halo tho then It'd be a lot closer.

Drop the LR, IMO. You don't need it. Right now you have 15 scoring bodies that can DW assault. Another 5 termies really beefs up your model count and as they are so mobile, the LR is not that great for them. I would also drop 1 RW squad for a libby in termie armor as it gives you a lot of utility, including that hood to stop lash and such.

You don't really need the c.fist. Better to go 5 x TH/SS w/ clyclone or 1 x L.Claw, 4 x TH/SS w/ clycone than to take a chain fist. All the t.hammers will do the trick. Use your RW to kill AV14 vehicles.

The Cyclone is the clear choice, IMO. The Heavy Flamer is not bad, but the clycone gives you so much more utility that is totally outshines the h.flamer.

@Devastator
Your critiques are a bit strange. What do you suggest he take then in a DW list if not termies, LRs or bikes...

I tried DW (all terminators) against a tournament Chaos list and Chaos got smashed. They are very powerful and the key to them are the DW assault termies with cylcone. Max those and you will do well, but you need lots of them as a few bad dice rolls means you really lose a lot of fight. The Ravewing are there only for deployment options and to shore up any weaknesses to AV14.

Reecius wrote:Drop the LR, IMO. You don't need it. Right now you have 15 scoring bodies that can DW assault. Another 5 termies really beefs up your model count and as they are so mobile, the LR is not that great for them. I would also drop 1 RW squad for a libby in termie armor as it gives you a lot of utility, including that hood to stop lash and such.

You don't really need the c.fist. Better to go 5 x TH/SS w/ clyclone or 1 x L.Claw, 4 x TH/SS w/ clycone than to take a chain fist. All the t.hammers will do the trick. Use your RW to kill AV14 vehicles.

The Cyclone is the clear choice, IMO. The Heavy Flamer is not bad, but the clycone gives you so much more utility that is totally outshines the h.flamer.

@Devastator
Your critiques are a bit strange. What do you suggest he take then in a DW list if not termies, LRs or bikes...

I tried DW (all terminators) against a tournament Chaos list and Chaos got smashed. They are very powerful and the key to them are the DW assault termies with cylcone. Max those and you will do well, but you need lots of them as a few bad dice rolls means you really lose a lot of fight. The Ravewing are there only for deployment options and to shore up any weaknesses to AV14.

Also, the Ravenwing all have teleport homers, so no scatter on the deep strike ><. Problem w/ libby is that they're only leadership 9. Kind of a bummer.

Cnevets wrote:

Reecius wrote:snip

Also, the Ravenwing all have teleport homers, so no scatter on the deep strike ><. Problem w/ libby is that they're only leadership 9. Kind of a bummer.

IIRC, Belials rites of battle rule affects all units, making them Ld10 while Belial is still alive.

Not for psychic tests, though it would count on hood, which may make it decent enough.

Doesn't affect the libby unfortunately. He's ld9 for his hood. Which makes him almost pointless to take :(

Ah hell, hahaha, yes I forgot how crappy the DA libby was.

Yeah, forget it. You just take it on the chin against Lash. That sucks. In that case you really need the RW to use DW assault to take out those princes ASAP.

so I have a question regarding DW Assault, do you have to bring your Terminators in turn one, or can you wait to do the mass deep strike, because that kinda makes the fact that they can teleport on the RW bikes irrelevant if all you're doing is deepstriking right into your own deployment zone.

The RWs have scout so you will be able to deep strike safely outside of your deployment zone but you have to drop half rounding up on T1

oooohhhh gotcha, well that makes things a little better. and as far as the other responses go I like the idea of having not to wait on anyone in reserve and I like the bullet magnet that a land raider is allowing the other threats to close in and whatnot, though I'd never take it against a lance list.

hey so here's an alternate list,

HQ:
Belial - TH/SS - 130pts

Troops:
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Company Banner, Apothecary, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist - 295pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist - 240pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist - 240pts

Fast Attack:
3x Ravenwing Bikes - 2x Melta, PF - 165pts
3x Ravenwing Bikes - 2x Melta, PF - 165pts

Heavy:
Predator - X-Armor, Dozer Blade, Las Sponsons - 140pts
Predator - X-Armor, Dozer Blade, Las Sponsons - 140pts

Total: 1500pts

For the 50 points you're paying in RW Powerfists, you could drop them and take an Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta. If they are in assault they are dead anyways. If you are going after a 1st turn assault on a tank, you could then drop the Extra Armor from a Predator and take Melta Bombs for your SGTs.

Ditch the Crusader. Little point having a Missile Launcher in a transport with no shootan' holes, even a Relentless one, and the Missile Launcher is better.

Also drop the Fists off the Bike squads; they can't charge into cover without losing models and if a Walker/ Monster gets hold of a 3-man Bike squad the likelihood is they will be dead before Initiative 1 anyway.

You now have 315pts left to spend. I'd recommend MOAR Bikes, but MOAR Terminators and a single Attack Bike wouldn't be bad either.

Alright, here's a revised one, took some of your guys' advice and tried best to incorporate it, see what you think:

HQ:
Belial - TH/SS - 130pts

Troops:
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Company Banner, Apothecary, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 290pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts

Fast Attack:
3x Ravenwing Bikes - Melta, Flamer - 135pts
3x Ravenwing Bikes - Melta, Flamer - 135pts
Attack Bike - Multi-Melta - 50pts
Attack Bike - Multi-Melta - 50pts

Heavy:
Predator - Las Sponsons - 120pts
Predator - Las Sponsons - 120pts

Total: 1500pts

I don't have my codex handy, so I might be mistaken on this, but I believe those preds clock in at 130 points each.

I don't feel they are adding much to the list anyway, and you would likely be better off buffing up the bike squads or adding another termie squad with CML. You could then throw melta bombs on one of the bike sarges.

Termie Squad offer more scoring and long range firepower. The bikes will help protect your anti-tank and give you better anti-horde (which you are sorely lacking right now).

you right about the preds point cost, in that case looks like another termie squad!

Here's another alternate with some anti-horde thrown in:
HQ:
Belial - TH/SS - 130pts

Troops:
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Apothecary, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 265pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts

Fast Attack:
3x Ravenwing Bikes - Melta, Flamer - 135pts
3x Ravenwing Bikes - Melta, Flamer - 135pts
Attack Bike - Multi-Melta - 50pts
Attack Bike - Multi-Melta - 50pts

Heavy:
Vindicator - Dozer Blade - 130pts
Vindicator - Dozer Blade - 130pts

Total: 1495pts

I've always been a big fan of the duel threat vindicator 1-2 punch and it never fails to intimidate. I sacrifice the chapter banner, but hey you can't have everything.

thoughts?

I don't think you need vehicles at all and in particular Vindicators.

I don't like them for many reasons but in that case especially for the rare (but in fact not so rare.. ) evetuality that a bigblast hurt your Terms. Ok they're almost all shielded but a 2 is a 2. Besides you have just 15 scoring models..

I will just simplify the list at his minimalist look.

HQ - Belial - TH/SS. 130
TR - 5x DW - Apot. TH/SS - Banner TH/SS - TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 290
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
FA - 3x bikes, no upgrades. 120 (they gonna die very quickely in anycase.. )

DW Assault Belial in apo+banner unit + 2 regular unit very deep in the adversary midfield, the others 2 easily entering on foot from the edge during the game and the bikes suiciding with no regret or just turboing in a safer place in kill points games.

A part vs some particular army, ie mob orks, where you'll be better deploying everything from the beginning and shooting shooting shooting blast missiles, you'll can resist to a first turn of shooting/assault once teleported by DW assault. And the turn after start the party.

by the way it will become fastly a very boring party imho..

If you haven't allready buyed the models just consider to try something a little less "no-brain".

Toban wrote:I don't think you need vehicles at all and in particular Vindicators.

I don't like them for many reasons but in that case especially for the rare (but in fact not so rare.. ) evetuality that a bigblast hurt your Terms. Ok they're almost all shielded but a 2 is a 2. Besides you have just 15 scoring models..

I will just simplify the list at his minimalist look.

HQ - Belial - TH/SS. 130
TR - 5x DW - Apot. TH/SS - Banner TH/SS - TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 290
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
FA - 3x bikes, no upgrades. 120 (they gonna die very quickely in anycase.. )

DW Assault Belial in apo+banner unit + 2 regular unit very deep in the adversary midfield, the others 2 easily entering on foot from the edge during the game and the bikes suiciding with no regret or just turboing in a safer place in kill points games.

A part vs some particular army, ie mob orks, where you'll be better deploying everything from the beginning and shooting shooting shooting blast missiles, you'll can resist to a first turn of shooting/assault once teleported by DW assault. And the turn after start the party.

by the way it will become fastly a very boring party imho..

If you haven't allready buyed the models just consider to try something a little less "no-brain".

It will become boring beacause you turned his balanced 1500pt list into a spamfest...sure your list is better but as you say yourself, as fun as watching paint dry...

tedurur wrote:

Toban wrote:I don't think you need vehicles at all and in particular Vindicators.

I don't like them for many reasons but in that case especially for the rare (but in fact not so rare.. ) evetuality that a bigblast hurt your Terms. Ok they're almost all shielded but a 2 is a 2. Besides you have just 15 scoring models..

I will just simplify the list at his minimalist look.

HQ - Belial - TH/SS. 130
TR - 5x DW - Apot. TH/SS - Banner TH/SS - TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 290
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
TR - 5x DW - 3x TH/SS - TH/SS/CML - storm bolter/CF. 240
FA - 3x bikes, no upgrades. 120 (they gonna die very quickely in anycase.. )

DW Assault Belial in apo+banner unit + 2 regular unit very deep in the adversary midfield, the others 2 easily entering on foot from the edge during the game and the bikes suiciding with no regret or just turboing in a safer place in kill points games.

A part vs some particular army, ie mob orks, where you'll be better deploying everything from the beginning and shooting shooting shooting blast missiles, you'll can resist to a first turn of shooting/assault once teleported by DW assault. And the turn after start the party.

by the way it will become fastly a very boring party imho..

If you haven't allready buyed the models just consider to try something a little less "no-brain".

It will become boring beacause you turned his balanced 1500pt list into a spamfest...sure your list is better but as you say yourself, as fun as watching paint dry...

Thank you Tedurur, no offense to Toban, but I'm not building this list just to see how many terminators I can spam, I'm building it to be balanced and able to deal with everything except lists designed to beat it. and as far as the vindicators go, I've never had any regrets when i take two. One is a bullet Magnet, two is problem for the opposition that they have to deal with.

You seem to have 4 Fast Attack choices. Dunno if this is just the way you're writing your list out or what, but you only get 3 Fast Attack slots.

Either way the list is looking a lot healthier without that big obnoxious Land Raider in it. More Terminators instead of the vehicles is definitely the sensible option because TH/SS Termies rule, but if you want variety then maybe consider ditching the vehicles altogether and bringing more Bikes. Also give the Bikers 2 Meltaguns; you don't want them anywhere near terrain pieces, and you certainly don't want them close enough to an enemy unit to use a Flamer.

If you really, REALLY want the tanks then you want them set up to kill horde infantry, since that's the only unit type your list struggles to deal with efficiently. Vindicators do this by default, but they need to move forward to do this, leaving themselves open for a krumping, which is bad because they only have one weapon and when that's gone they become rolling terrain pieces. Dakka Preds run you 95pts each, pump out 8 shots per turn and don't need to move very far to get their shooting done, but they're a bit limp-wristed.

If you do like this:

Belial
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
Ravenwing Bike Squad (3 Bikes, 2 Meltaguns, 1x MM Attack Bike) - 190
Ravenwing Bike Squad (3 Bikes, 2 Meltaguns, 1x MM Attack Bike) - 190
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95

You'll end up with lots of shooty, a couple of Meltagun units to bust open AV13-14, plus three Cyclones that can either dump S8 Krak Missiles into transports or S4 Blasts into infantry AND three units of TH/ SS Termies.

Don't worry about losing the Chapter Banner, it's a waste of points. Your entire army is Fearless and TH/ SS Terminators tend not to need any extra attacks in order to smash things up.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:
If you do like this:

Belial
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
Ravenwing Bike Squad (3 Bikes, 2 Meltaguns, 1x MM Attack Bike) - 190
Ravenwing Bike Squad (3 Bikes, 2 Meltaguns, 1x MM Attack Bike) - 190
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95

I like this sir! (and yeah the 4 fast Attack was just the way I was laying things out with the attack bikes) my main worry isn't losing the chapter banner (nice as it is) but rather the apothecary, now that the ruleset has been updated to FNP it makes him quite valuable in belials' squad

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:You seem to have 4 Fast Attack choices. Dunno if this is just the way you're writing your list out or what, but you only get 3 Fast Attack slots.

Either way the list is looking a lot healthier without that big obnoxious Land Raider in it. More Terminators instead of the vehicles is definitely the sensible option because TH/SS Termies rule, but if you want variety then maybe consider ditching the vehicles altogether and bringing more Bikes. Also give the Bikers 2 Meltaguns; you don't want them anywhere near terrain pieces, and you certainly don't want them close enough to an enemy unit to use a Flamer.

If you really, REALLY want the tanks then you want them set up to kill horde infantry, since that's the only unit type your list struggles to deal with efficiently. Vindicators do this by default, but they need to move forward to do this, leaving themselves open for a krumping, which is bad because they only have one weapon and when that's gone they become rolling terrain pieces. Dakka Preds run you 95pts each, pump out 8 shots per turn and don't need to move very far to get their shooting done, but they're a bit limp-wristed.

If you do like this:

Belial
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
5-man DW Squad (3x TH/ SS, 1x TH/ SS with CML) - 235
Ravenwing Bike Squad (3 Bikes, 2 Meltaguns, 1x MM Attack Bike) - 190
Ravenwing Bike Squad (3 Bikes, 2 Meltaguns, 1x MM Attack Bike) - 190
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95
Dakka Pred (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) - 95

You'll end up with lots of shooty, a couple of Meltagun units to bust open AV13-14, plus three Cyclones that can either dump S8 Krak Missiles into transports or S4 Blasts into infantry AND three units of TH/ SS Termies.

Don't worry about losing the Chapter Banner, it's a waste of points. Your entire army is Fearless and TH/ SS Terminators tend not to need any extra attacks in order to smash things up.

Attack bikes only come as a bike squad upgrade so they don't waste any slots. I think the list you came out w/ is very well balanced, decently competitive, probably very fun also. My hats off to you good sir.

Brother Heinrich wrote:I like this sir! (and yeah the 4 fast Attack was just the way I was laying things out with the attack bikes) my main worry isn't losing the chapter banner (nice as it is) but rather the apothecary, now that the ruleset has been updated to FNP it makes him quite valuable in belials' squad

Losing the Apothecary is indeed a far bigger blow than losing the banner; he lets Belial's squad walk through the kind of FRFSRF massed shooting that is usually what kills off TH/ SS Termies.

That said, you have 3 squads of the buggers, plus two squads of Bikes. That's 5 squads which require massed fire to take down, all of which are Fearless and thus need to be wiped out (none of this chipping away wounds and hoping for Ld test failures) before they cease to be a factor in the game.

Normally, facing that, I'd throw all the small arms I had at your Termies and use my anti-tank weapons to take on the Bikes... but I also have 3 Predators to contend with, each of which can terrorise T3-4 infantry and can quite comfortably Shake/ Stun the hell out of AV10 and 11 if you need them to.

It's a lot to ask your opponent to deal with. Not an unbeatable army by any stretch of the imagination... but then nothing is unbeatable in 40k


Glad you like the list, let me know how you get on with it :-D

True enough, I think I'll be going with my vindicator list for now just because of money constraints, but further along the line I definitely want to try out the dakka pred spam, it does look quite nasty on paper and surprisingly shooty for a 'deathwing' army. thanks all for the help and advice, take care!

the final tally:

HQ:
Belial - TH/SS - 130pts

Troops:
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Apothecary, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 265pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts
5x DWT, 4xTH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts

Fast Attack:
3x Ravenwing Bikes - 2x Melta - 140pts
3x Ravenwing Bikes - 2x Melta - 140pts
Attack Bike - Multi-Melta - 50pts
Attack Bike - Multi-Melta - 50pts

Heavy:
Vindicator - 125pts
Vindicator - 125pts

Total: 1495pts